…Always

TTFA Classic
Written By Team Terrible

Greg was married to his best friend, Anna, for 6 years. He had so much love and respect for her, so the night he told her he was gay was painful because he knew how much he was hurting her. In the ten months since then, Greg has looked hard at his depression and addiction, two things that held him back from admitting his sexuality. This is part 2 of a story about one couple’s divorce. Listen to part 1 of this episode, “Everything, All Of You…”

If you need support for addiction, check out these resources:

  • Ben’s Friends- a support group for people in the food and beverage industry

  • Alcoholics Anonymous

  • SAMHSA- a hotline that can connect you to local treatment facilities, support groups, and community-based organizations.

If you are struggling with suicidal thoughts (or love someone who does):

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Claire: Just a note, this episode discusses suicidal thoughts. Listen with care. 

Intro: Um, How are you? Most people answer that question with fine or good, but obviously it's not always fine and it's usually not even that good. This is a podcast that asks people to be honest about their pain, to just be honest about how they really feel about the hard parts of life. And guess what? It's complicated. I'm Nora McInerny, and this is terrible. Thanks for asking.

Nora: Two weeks ago, we introduced you all to Anna, a 33 year old woman currently going through a divorce with her husband Greg. Last December, after 7 complicated years together – lots of love and lots of…confusion and frustration… Greg told Anna he is gay. 

Anna: I felt my body take a deep breath that like reached places I hadn't Unc Unclenched in seven years. Um, because it just sort of like this thing washed over me in a way where it just all made sense and I finally could hear this person that all I wanted this entire time was for him to just say anything real and have me be able to hear it. 

Nora: If you haven't listened to that episode, go back and listen to "Everything, All of you" to hear Anna's story. Over the last ten months, Anna and Greg have navigated not only their divorce from each other, but also what they each learned from their relationship. Anna often ignored her instincts that something was wrong in her relationship and didn't ask for what she needed. 

The point of Anna's story is that her divorce is teaching her about how she takes care of herself. That was going to be the end of the story. But then in the fact checking process, our producer Claire McInerny reached out to Greg. 

Claire:  I emailed Greg and, uh, um, I kind of, I was, don't worry, I'll keep you honest. so I was just kind of telling him, I'm just double checking. You're okay with us talking about your sexuality and your drug addiction, you know, as Anna understood it, um, kind of told him what was covered. And then I said, and of course, if you wanted to talk to us, the door is still open. And he responded like three days later and he said, I'm in. I'm off on Wednesdays. And it was a Tuesday. So I called him the very next day and we talked for hours.

Claire: I just think like it would feel disingenuous to your experience to Not give it the same like time and scope that she did and I think just hearing both sides of why a marriage broke up is you know fair to you both, you know, 

Greg: Well, thank you. Thank you very much that the representation, I mean, that was my like, When she first told me about it, I was like, oh my god, everybody in the world is gonna think I'm a fucking monster. Like, you know what I mean? That 

Claire: I do know what he means. What we learned from Anna in the last episode was: she met a guy, fell in love with him, he hid a drug addiction through most of their relationship and then 7 years in told her he was gay. Everything I knew about Greg was... intense. It could be easy to paint him as a liar or maybe even a manipulator.

But as I told Greg at the beginning of our interview, the one thing Anna told me that I kept in the back of my mind is that Greg had a years long drug addiction. I have loved many addicts in my life. So I know what it feels like to be Anna- I've been lied to. I've had someone I love hold me at arm's length. A previous version of myself would have heard Anna's story and only felt sympathy for how she was wronged.

But some of these people I love have gotten sober, and while we rebuilt those relationships, I've gained more empathy for what it's like to be the addict. I've learned why they liked using so much, and why they used so much. What it all boils down to is that for some reason, specific to their life experiences, they hate living in their mind. 

So when I was working on Anna's episode, I never thought "Greg is a monster". I thought, "I bet Greg's been in pain for a really long time". 

Nora: So when Greg emailed us back and said he'd do an interview, we knew he needed his own episode. 

One of the most painful moments of Anna's life, the night her husband told her he was gay and needed a divorce, was also a painful day for Greg. But it was a painful day in a long, long string of painful days.

Greg: my family deals with a lot of depression. Um, we have a lot of suicide in my family. but, um, my first memory as a child, um, was being in the backseat of a minivan and looking up in the sky and saying, or just thinking, like, I don't want to do this. Like, I don't, I don't want to be here. I don't like this isn't I don't like this. I don't like this. Something's something's not like right, you know, so that mentality Has stayed with me My entire life. my story is so deep rooted in shame , and just depression, drugs, you know.

Nora: Greg grew up the youngest of three siblings. He has two older sisters, a mom and a dad who was busy working a lot. In many ways, he had the standard upbringing of any 35 year old man in America..which means being gay wasn’t really celebrated.

Greg: I grew up in this toxic masculine, I mean, we, we all know the 80s, 90s, early aughts, like, oh, goddammit, what were we doing? And it's devastating to look back on some of that time, you know? I Grew up in an environment in which, like, if you were gay, you're done. Like, there is no option for you. Like, and you're probably gonna, you're, you're just immediately cast off. 

Nora: Greg's understanding of his sexuality when he was growing up was...vague. He doesn’t have big momentsof clarity in his childhood that he can point to, no big AHA, I’M GAY! Moment.. Instead, he has memories of feeling uncomfortable, but not being able to express why. 

Greg: I remember I must have been in like seventh grade and my friend had a computer and his And, like, he had access to the internet faster than we did, So he showed us porn, and was just like, WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS? Um, I'll n like, I'll never forget the image of the first thing I saw, and I was like, Holy shit, no, thank you. Like, my first reaction to porn was like, what fuck? They're just letting you do what is this? You know, my little my little seven year old brain could or like seven seventh grade brain could not comprehend what I was looking at. They were like, Oh man, that's awesome. You know? I'm just like. That looks terrifying, like, what the fuck. Um, and so it didn't, like, click then, but, um, because also, like, was raised by women, and I was, um, I have always had a feminine side to me that, like, I have just been, like, let anybody see that you know what mean even before like understanding sexuality 

Having sisters in the arts community in theater community and ballet community like I met and hung out With a lot of gay people and in like at our house, and they was just like yeah, this is great You know And like there was never any feeling of like this is weird or this is bad or any of that It was just like so I was around gay people so I knew they existed And I always had a great time with them. Like, every time was around my sister's friends, or anything like that, or, you know, it was just like, this feels right, this feels natural, this is so lovely. But, that was the vacation, Twilight, you know, that was the... They're hanging out outside of what my day to day is. And my day to day was very much like, don't, you're, you're, there is, you can't, that is not an option. Like, you, you cannot be gay. You cannot be gay. 

Greg: In my world of hockey the word gay, fag, all of those things were just thrown out all the time. when I got into like high school and all that kind stuff, like I didn't know anybody. after I decided to quit hockey, I, played in metal bands and hardcore bands and all that kind of stuff. Um, and just never really feeling like I fit into any of that, but just like, that was my facade, right? That was my cape. It was like, I'm not gay. I played hockey. I'm, you know, I'm, I'm hardcore about hockey. I'm not gay. I play in this metal band. but anytime that I wanted to even examine, um, my sexuality or anything of that nature, like at that age it was always met with, like, extreme negativity.

In high school, there was only one openly gay person, and he was in the theater department, and I used to have lunch with him. And like, I used to hang out with the theater crowd because like, some of them knew my sister, because they acted together, they were older, and like, so like, I felt like I had this connection, like I had this window into who I was, like, because I, like, this feels natural, this feels comfortable, being with these individuals feels better than being with my friends, right? so hanging out with the gay kid, you're gay, you're fag, people called me gay my entire life. You know what I man, you're gay, you're weird. And I like, I just tried to brush it off as like, no, I'm just a silly person. yeah, there wasn't, I wasn't allowed to, I didn't allow myself to even examine, um, uh, you know, there was this, you know, the moment that describing that I'm coming back to is like, This guy, uh, who, who is gay and he was so nice. He was such a sweet person and he still is, I'm sure. Um, and he invited me to come have a sleepover with him. And I wanted to so, so fucking bad. Like I really did. I remember it so vividly and I wanted to just and wanted to like explode, you know, wanted to just be like, Hey man, like I'm feeling all these things. Um, I think at that point, I wouldn't allow myself to see boys and men as like an option. It was more of like, this is safe. This feels safe. and so all I was doing was try to find some level of security. I, I said no because somebody else was standing nearby. because, and I knew that if I had said yes, that person was like, Greg and this guy are fucking, you know what mean? And then it was just going to be like, well, I can't, I can't live, like I can't do that, you know? Because also there was also this other extreme layer of like, this is going to get in the way of my drugs. 


Greg: I started going to a therapist, uh, I think in middle school because my sister wanted, wanted go to therapy and she got on meds. Um, uh, pretty early. And so my mom was like, well, obviously you're going need go on meds. So I got really good at telling the doctor I have anxiety. I have depression. I got panic attacks. Well, 20 years ago, 25 years ago, the first thing they're going to give you is a script for or Xanax or whatever. They're 0. 25 milligram every time you're nervous. I'm over here taking 6 milligrams every time you know what I mean? And then, um, finding ways to sell this, or finding, like, oh, Percocet is this, okay, well, Oxys are this, like, you know, and so that was the thing. 

So, when I think about my sexuality, by way of, like, coming into puberty, and adulthood, and that process, like, Um, I didn't even allow that to happen, you know? I, like, did I watch gay porn? Yeah. Did I tell anybody about that? Fucking no. Absolutely not. Like, I, I hid everything. And was already conditioned to it because was hiding my drug addiction. Like, everybody fucking knew. I was not smooth back then. But my mom wasn't saying anything. My dad didn't anything. They knew they in talking to them now, they're like, yeah, we knew something was going on. I'm like, do you understand that I pawned a lot shit to get drug money. Like, do you understand this? You know, do you understand that when you had back surgery, I stole your entire Percocet, , prescription.

As far as... Examining sexuality, that didn't really come out or like, didn't, I didn't even get that opportunity because every chance that it did present, it was immediate something negative happened. And so I may like always associated gay with bad and these feelings I have are bad and who I am is bad. 

But like I lost my virginity to this very sweet person and she, uh, was very kind and very quiet. And it was just like this, we didn't talk much. Um, And then afterwards, I cried, uh, for about 45 minutes. So that's not really cool as a guy, to like, start crying immediately after you lose your virginity. And again, like, I don't know what it is, like, really, like, to, to 100 percent honesty, like, I don't know what this feeling is, like, why am I feeling this you know? Like, and, but not, not having the, um, the ability to even ask that question, it's just like, whatever I gotta do to get to the next ten minutes, you know?

Um, but I knew, I was like, this isn't right, like, this doesn't, this is, something is wrong. Um, and so, the drugs got more, you know, you get more and more into it to, to kill that, that feeling. I have to be very honest. There pockets of my life, um, that I have no, I have no recollection of, And so, you know, I'd leave school and I would go work at this shitty grocery store, uh, and I would steal all the little mini wine bottles. And so I was just drunk as shit all the time. I mean, I think I held it together and then I realized like, Oh, red wine stains your teeth, get white wine, you fucking idiot. Um, so, you know, I figured out these little tools and all that kind of stuff. But then I also was working with people in their forties and their fifties, you know mean? Like I'm working with burnouts and they're, you know, it's just like, Oh, so you just smoke weed or do drugs all the time and come to work. I want to do that, you know? 

Greg: Fell into the culinary industry because a person knew had drugs and he worked at restaurant and that was all wanted to do. Um, so became very good at doing drugs. I had to have two jobs to support my habit for the most of the time. I would pick up anything I could, if there was an opportunity to, to do private dinners, you know, so the, the pathway was like, all right, you're cooking because you can get drugs. Oh, you're actually pretty good at this. Like, so you can still do drugs, but can still do this really well. I succeeded, you know, I, I thrived, um, because I put everything I had into the job into the, because that's all I had. I hadn't, I didn't have anything else, you know, my, my relationship with my parents was very surface. Um, my relationship with my sisters was, you know, during that time, non existent, you know, they were, I didn't, I mean, I, I didn't pick up the phone, you know, because leave me alone, I'm doing drugs, you know what I mean?

Greg: I worked in environments where your job was to get ahead of next person. And you did that as you did that in whatever way you had to. Just picture sweet, young, baby Greg, uh, really mean. And I mean, just like, just mean, like was just a mean person because that's the environment that I was... You know, I was bitter. In the morning I'd have my showers and I would, you know, be like, well, if they say this, I'm going to say that. And if he comes at with this, I'm going to tell him that. And if this guy tries to do this, I'm going to tell him to go fuck him. You know what I mean? Like it was, I planned every single interaction. Like you want to, you want to come at me like, let's fucking go. Um, and it was also, you know, a lot of the ego shit. This is prime ego chef bullshit. Um, and that was my world. Like everybody I interacted with. Was shitty to some extent like if you were trying to get ahead of them. It was not good.

Nora: And Greg was trying to get ahead of everybody. He had found something he was actually good at, and the way the industry functioned when he was starting out was the perfect place for a heavily addicted, emotionally stunted person to thrive. 

Greg: I was a very goal oriented person and I had wrote down, uh, you know, to be a chef de cuisine by the time I was 28. Right? Like, be a executive chef by the time I'm 32. I'm gonna grind my ass off. I'm gonna, I'm drinking all the Kool Aid. Let's go. You know? Um, and I did really well. 

Nora: Life is a series of actions and decisions: when am I going to wake up tomorrow?What will I have for breakfast? What AM I GOING TO DO WITH MY LIFE! What job do I take next? There’s just no way to know which of these choices is going to be the one that changes your life. When Greg takes a chef job at a farm-to-table restaurant in North Carolina, he has no way of knowing that he’s about to meet the woman who will become his wife, his closest friend…and eventually his ex-wife. 

Greg: I remember the moment that I met her as well. So I remember walking up to the host stand that she you know She was working after school. She was a teacher at the time and I just remember like introducing myself And just saying hi to her and all that kind stuff and I remember I think it was like the next day She always Anna's got incredible fashion. Like, she's so fucking cool. Um, but she was wearing, uh, this like, long dress, and like, flowy like, over, like she looked like a Jedi like a character of Star Wars, right? Like, but like, kinda like wood nymph, like vibe, like, so combine you know, uh Lord the Rings the elf culture with Star Wars, I don't know how to describe it, she looked incredible and she walked up like with this power and this just like, I know who the fuck I am like, shut the fuck like, and that's what extracted me to tour was like this ability of like meeting a human being that on the surface, like, presenting in way that says, I'm smart, I know what the fuck's up. Like, so Anna saw me as this confident person, you know, and what it was, was I was overcompensating all the time. She was person that, she was somebody, like, I had never heard anybody talk the way that she talked, how she explained things, it was, I'd never heard anybody speak like this, she was, she's so, so smart, and I was so attracted to somebody that was, on the outside, this level of confidence, this level of, like, Yeah, I know what's up, fuck you if you don't agree. You know, like, just this added, like, tough. She was just such a, she's a badass. Like, she is a fucking badass. Like, she's, she's just so smart, so cool, so quick. Like, all of those things. She was funny as hell. Like, all of those things is why I was attracted to her. 

Nora: They start dating, and like Anna told us…they move really quickly. While Anna was falling in love with Greg, Greg was falling in love with their relationship and how ANNA made him feel. 

Greg: I hate that everything goes back to drugs, but like, with her, I was able to slow down. Like, I, I, for the first time in my life, I was able to be like, okay, you need to... Fucking pump the brakes a little bit. And so was able to like, kind of cut back and, you know, just strict to drinking and of course that, we all know how that usually goes. like she helped distract me out of that mindset and help me start examining deeper questions about society, about who I am, about what I want to do, I want to, what I, how I want to spend my time, what's important to me, because I'd never, I had never asked any of those questions at all. Because it was felt like she was activating something inside of me that like, she was gonna make me better. She is bringing something out and This feels like something, you know? 

Nora: And it IS something. Even if Greg is years away from truly understanding and accepting that he’s gay, there IS something, and that something IS love. 

A few months into their relationship, Greg was offered an executive chef job in Charleston. He knew he would take it, this was one of the goals he had written down, one he was pursuing relentlessly.. He didn't know what that would mean for this relationship- but Anna decided to come along. And the transition from North Carolina to South Carolina was tough for Anna – she’s a new city, has no job,  and they’re living in an apartment she hated

Greg: And also I'm still using, you know, she doesn't, she doesn't know, you know, I'm still using. Um. And I felt so fucking bad for her, like, when we got there, it was, it was bad. It was really dark, like, she was really just kind of despondent. Um, it was, that was rough, and so I was immediately like, Well, she should probably leave, like, she should probably leave me, because I made her do this, you know what I mean? like, why would I stay around for this, you know? Like, but she stayed, and I was very committed to like, It's so fucking stupid, but I was just like, I want to get, you know, on the James Beard list or I want get, I want to move up in this industry. I want, you know, like I want the accolades, I want that, you know, cause I had, I had spent a large portion of my career working for accolades for other people. Um, and so it was just grilled into me. So I was, I was pretty focused in that regard of like, I'm going to start making moves or start to try to do some big things because I want to. And so I was I was a terrible partner during that time because I didn't have the tools to understand what she was going through.

Nora: Eventually Anna found a job, they moved into a better house, and the two of them felt happier with their lives in Charleston. 

Greg: which of course it makes sense that that led into her proposing to me at that house very quickly, you know? And it made sense. It 100 percent made sense. And like, I had also formulated this master plan to ask Anna to marry me, because I was like, this is what has to happen next, right? Um, and had like, I hadn't, I didn't act on any of but I was like, going to call her dad. I'm to ask for permission. And then I'm gonna, you know, we're going go back North Carolina for a vacation and, or like for time off. And then, you know, I'll do it there. And so like, that was my, like, I had like a vague plan. 

It was one of those situations, like if the dishwasher walked out, we had massive event that night. So obviously I'm washing dishes till midnight or whatever it was. was also my birthday. Anna told me, she's yeah, you know, I got a cake and, know, we'll do birthday when get home. And I was just like, I, you know, I'm like, I don't want to fucking do that. You know, like, I'm covered in sweat. I'm covered in dishwasher. I just want to, you know, just want to end the day. And I walk in and I'm immediately, the first thing that I'm met with is the heat. Uh, cause she lit like hundreds of candles. And was like, a sauna in there, and it's also Charleston, so it's just like, gross swap town anyways. So that was my first reaction, was just like, why is it so fucking hot in here? And then looking around, seeing the candles, it's like, oh man, this is gonna happen, like knew, I knew what was coming. And so for her to ask me, wasn't like a out of the blue thing, you know, it was something that we had kind of gently talked about, you know, it was sooner than I had expected for her to ask me. 

But the gravitational pull that Anna has is unlike anything else I've ever experienced. And like, I am always interested in what she's doing and like, i, I've done a horrible job expressing that interest, you know, but she is, god, she just, she's mesmerizing. She truly is. She's so magnetic, so, and she's so safe. She's so comfortable. She's so loving. She's so kind. Like, all of those things, like, that was before, hey, you've been dealing with this thing that you should probably deal with, but you haven't dealt with your entire life. But Anna feels safe and she's, she feels like a person that you can connect with. So yes, this makes sense. Let's go. So that's, you know, that's what it was. um, you know, and the whole time just suppressing those feelings of wanting to, to, to scream and just be like, something's wrong. Something's not right. 

Nora: Something's not right, but to Greg, it's not Anna that feels wrong. He feels wrong, and he's felt this most of his life. So Anna asks Greg to marry her, in that hot, sweaty living room, surrounded by hundreds of candles, while he’s covered in dishwasher residue and sweat…, he says...yeah. of course. And if the promise of marriage is forever…well, to Greg, forever just doesn’t seem like much of a promise. 

Greg: I've been on the verge of suicide for 30 years. Like, I think about it every day. I genuinely do. and you're asking, did I have any inkling of... this not working out. I didn't think I was gonna make it this long. I just, like, I did not plan to make, I did not plan to be alive. My plan was to not be alive. It's hard to communicate to somebody and tell them, uh, what that does to you and what that does to your, the way that you view the world, um, to, for at least two decades. Every day. At one point. It's like, yeah, you should probably, you should probably go ahead and kill yourself. For 20 years. Every day. That's how felt. Um, so the sexuality thing came after that. 

Nora: The truth about Greg's sexuality won't emerge for 6 years after this proposal. That's because he could really understand himself, he would have to clear the fog of drugs and booze that have masked his feelings since he was a teenager. 

Painkillers were always Greg's drug of choice. And throughout most of his marriage with Anna, Greg was constantly using and hiding it from her. Eventually, he wanted to get off the pills. His legitimate prescription was running out and he was tired of all the mental math of trying to manage his intake without ruining his job performance. 

Greg: Um, so, you know, the tapering off thing, like, yeah, that was hard. However, I was drunk a lot. And so I just, I couldn't do it anymore. Like I couldn't handle it. I called my sister. Um, you know, she worked at the Trevor project for years. Um, and she helped me, you know, she talked to me. she got it. She knows, she knows what's up and her compassion and her ability to, uh, take what I'm saying and say it back to me without me feeling worse, you know, was very important. Um, and I think the lying, like the lying, the constant lying, the constant like, you know, forgetting which lie, who I told who, you know, like which lie protects me here, which lie, what do they know about, do they know it? Like if this person meets this person, are they going to know what I'm doing, you know? I just got tired of lying. I got tired of, I got tired of walking across a bridge every night and thinking like, this is it, you know, every fucking night. 

So yeah, when I got sober and then we would still have sex, I was unbelievably anxious. Like a level of anxiety that I have, I, you know, I've been, and some extremely anxiety inducing situations, as we all have, but like, I had nothing like that. Nothing like that. Where you're supposed to be like, in this connection that is the most beautiful thing in the world, and all that it is making me do is get in my head and be like, what is wrong with me? What is wrong? What is wrong? What is wrong? This doesn't feel right. Something's wrong. And like, every time. and in my mind, I'm just like, well, something's going to change, right? Apparently, I don't know how do this. Um, but it was also like, you know, sexually, it was like, whatever I got to do to get this over with now. That's what sex felt like to me. It wasn't, this isn't something for me to enjoy. This is something for me to get over with because I don't want to, like, I'm not good at this. I think at this point I was kind of like, it's kind of feeling like, I think I'm probably bi. Like this makes, but not, not verbalizing that just being like, I think I'm like, this is something that I think is probably going on. Um, but yeah, man, just every time just feeling like, like, you know, it's not to say like every sexual encounter that we had was. awkward and weird and terrible, like, but the majority of them are, you know, or at least like for me, that's how I felt, you like I felt more disconnected. Like Anna wanted to feel close to me and, you know, by having sex, like she just wanted to feel closer to me and I felt further and further every time we had sex.

Nora: Greg went through this period of sobriety without any professional or community support outside of calling his sister. So at first, removing drugs and alcohol only made him more aware of the anxiety and discomfort he felt in his life. 

Greg: And so it was like, yeah, I'm struggling with sobriety. But I, again, never really addressing real reasons. It's why, you know, why am I feeling this way? Um, and then... I started going to a thing called Ben's Friends, which is a recovery group for the hospitality industry. And so started doing that, um, two days a week, like going to the virtual meetings and feeling little bit better being like, okay, don't need this. I don't need this. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. Um, but it kept happening. Like I kept going buy this stupid shit and just being, cause I just couldn't stand it. I couldn't stand the feeling of like, you know, I mean, it's like when you see a wild animal backed into a corner, it's going to do some crazy shit and like. It's hard to tell, like it's hard to say that, but it's like every day was backed into corner because I'm backed into somebody that I'm not and I'm pretending all of these things. I'm pretending that this is who I am and I, you know, um, and so being able to like, and I, you know, talk to my therapist about it I just was like, you know, and we just started casually talking about like, it wasn't like he didn't ask me, like, Greg, you gay? Like we were able to come that conclusion on my own. Like I was able to say that verbalize that. And then that was, you know, the devastation of realizing what this meant. 

Nora: At 34, Greg has finally admitted to himself and somebody else the truth: that he is gay. That he's always been gay. And he's suppressed this part of himself for decades. 

Greg: I was terrified. I was fucking terrified. Yeah.

Claire: what were you afraid of? 

Greg: I was gonna hurt Anna. 

Nora: Greg has finally admitted to himself, and his therapist, that he is gay. When Anna talks about that night, she remembers details. That she was standing in the kitchen when he told her. That they'd seen a movie earlier that night. She remembers telling him: 

Anna: I probably said everything, all of you always, which was one of the parts of our wedding vows, because at that part I do mean,

Greg: I don't remember what was said. I don't remember how, I don't remember what we did after what we did before. I don't remember. I just remember sitting on the couch and crying and telling her, I think I'm gay and her hearing me understanding or just like being loving and being kind. And all I felt was love and compassion from Anna. That's what I remember. 

The only thing I, I never, ever wanted to do was hurt her. And I, I did it real bad. And it was... Yeah. So, that I was mourning Anna. I was mourning what I was doing to her. Um, I felt like a manipulator. I felt like a horrible human. I felt like all the drug stock, like stuff coming back. I was just like, you deserve all the worst shit because you're a piece of shit. Look what you did to this person that you say that you love. You fucking, you piece of shit. Like I was, I mean, it was bad. It was just like nothing but negative speak. Um, but I was used to that, right? Like my, my safe zone was Kill yourself, kill yourself, kill yourself, you know? So to just, this was just more fuel. It was just like, well, this is probably the reason. Like, this is why you're gonna do it. It's because of what you did to her. And so it wasn't about her, which I know is fucked up. It was about me. And it was about what I did. 

There was like that, that period between, in December, between, before January, that was like, maybe we can make this work. Like maybe this, maybe, maybe our relationship can be something else. Um, and then kind of slowly realizing, like, I don't think that that can happen, you know? Um, that's when the, like the devastation on her part. We were still sleeping in the same bed and she would be crying herself to sleep every night and not, not like a soft, quiet cry, like fucking wailing and I can't do anything about it. And I, like, if I touch her, like touch her back, like that's going to make it worse. And so I just, I stayed in it. Because I've, you know, I was like, you deserve this, like, you did this to her, this is your fault, like, you fucked up, like, and this is, so it's not, like, again, it's so, this whole time, you know, I can't imagine what she's going through the same way she can't imagine what I'm going through. I did the one thing I said I would never do is I would never hurt her, um, and that's what I did, and I just did it, and, the most intense way you possibly could. 

And so then I kind of just was like, I want to do whatever I can to work through this. Um, and to, and to do this correctly and to be a present human being and to, to do right by Anna at least once in our fucking relationship. Because I felt like I, you know, I had not, I hadn't done right by her at all, you know, at all. 

It wasn't like a calculated move every step of the way. You know, she said, she said to me at one point that, um, you know, she had spoke to her people at work and one of them had said like, that's a form of abuse. And then, you know, she told me that. Um, and it was just like, so I've abused my best friend for the past seven years, man, I really am a bad person. Like I really should kill myself. Like this is. Like, I've done the one thing I told myself I wouldn't do. I've done the one thing that is the absolute antithesis of what you're supposed to do in a relationship. And I abused this human. I manipulated this human. how do you explain to people that like, Yeah. I am gay. I have always been gay, but I couldn't allow that because I was so fucking afraid. 

Nora: Many, many things can be true at the same time: Greg loves Anna, but not the way that Anna loves her. Greg hurt Anna – and that pain is real – and so is Greg’s. 

This situation is not just: Greg searched high and low for a woman he could hide behind and use…he devilishly twirled his mustache while thinking of the ways he could torture her into loving him while giving her nothing back…then pulled the rug out from under her while laughing at her thinking that the rug was a wall-to-wall carpet that had been nailed to the sub-flooring.

Everywhere you look in this story, there is so much pain.

And there is so much love.

When Greg and Anna got married, they were both lying to each other and themselves about what they wanted from a relationship. The only way for them to find clarity and peace was by ending their marriage.

And what we’ve heard from so many people as we worked on these stories of divorce is that divorce can hurt AND be the right choice, the loving choice, sometimes the only choice.

Stripping away the addiction, the lies, all of these massive, destructive burdens Greg has been carrying nearly his entire life…he’s finally able to be the partner Anna needs and deserves. 

Greg: I made just like this arbitrary goal of like, I'm going do whatever it takes to do the, do this right by Anna, like, because she deserves that, you know, she didn't deserve what I did and what I put us through because she's good human and she is one of the most inspiring people I've ever met. If not, like, the most inspiring person I've ever met. And so, I went into this mindset of, I just shut down some things mentally, and was just like, whatever we need to do for this to feel right, that's what we're doing. Um, and that's therapy, having her, uh, come to one of my therapy sessions, getting in contact with the decoupling counselor, um, moving out, you know, all of these steps were just like how I processed and being open and not lying and being present and being like, being present, being present, be present, be present, that's how I moved through it.

She, she deserves all the happiness and love in the world. Like she's fuck, she's the coolest. And I just, I wanted to be able to provide that because I haven't, I just haven't been that person. And if this is, and so, you know, when you ask, like, you know, did you, did you think I wasn't going to see again? Like that, that feeling was very brief because it became, it became very clear um, pretty quickly that like, we're going to work on this together and we're going to make it through, 

Nora: In the ten months since Greg came out and the two of them started the process of ending their marriage,, Greg has slowly created a new chapter of life. He's sober and in therapy. He moved into his own apartment. He got a cat. He's a chef at the same restaurant where he and Anna met. This time his leadership style in the kitchen is less mean and more empathetic. 

And...he's finally started exploring his sexuality and what it means for him to be gay. Right now, he's not ready to date, but he is coming out to people and living as an openly gay man.

Greg: And I think it's just because I'm so, um, I've been so damaged by my drug abuse and all that kind of stuff of like, having a real relationship, like, relationship with somebody with a capital R, like, I'm not really equipped for that. Um, and I'm okay with that. Like, I'm fine with that. Like, yeah, it's fun to have like crushes with some, you know, some guys that don't know that I'm gay or whatever, and just kind of be like, have that to myself. But like, You know, getting on the apps, any of that kind of shit. Like, I, that's, that's not for me. Like, I'm not, I'm not even there. Like, um, it's not important to me right now

I went up to New York during Pride. Um, not, not because of Pride, but I just went up to go see friend and like... Just like being in New York Pride just was an event in itself.cause it's just like, Oh yeah, nobody fucking cares about anything. It's the best. It just built more confidence about who  every time I spend more time in the queer community and the gay community of just like, God dammit, why wasn't I here sooner? 

Nora:  Why weren’t you there sooner? Because that’s just not how life works. I have yet to meet a person who self-actualized without first getting lost, making huge mistakes, carrying huge regrets…life moves at the speed of life, and not a second faster. We can’t flip to the back of the choose your own adventure to see what will get us to the ending where we’re safe and happyish and really living our lives. 

Most of life is bumbling through. We are bulls in a china shop of emotions, and sometimes that china is OTHER PEOPLE and sometimes it’s ourselves and this sentence no longer makes any sense but we do have to live with the fact that we will, as people, hurt ourselves, hurt each other, and find a way to live with it.

Greg is not ready to date – we love the self-awareness – but Anna recently started dating someone.

Greg: Anna getting into this relationship with this person, like, Sent me through a loop immediately, you know, like I was okay with it. And then I was fucking not. And I was like, what does this mean? I just felt replaced. I was like, um, I'm replaced out of the family, out of the life, out of the, you know, so like it, and it, you know, it's no fault of her own. Like she asked me every step of the way if this was okay. 

And so it's just like, okay, my favorite human being in the world is happy. is finding things out about herself and is exploring things about herself that she wasn't able to do with me. And she's growing as a human, like, Oh my God, that's so fucking beautiful. Like that's, you know, that's where I've landed with all of it. It's just like, I just want her to be happy at every, every moment. Like, you know that stupid bullshit line that they use in movies? Like, I don't want you to feel an ounce of sadness. It's like, I don't want Anna to ever be sad because she's such an incredible person. Um, and I'm thankful that I'm in this place now where, like I said, it's just like, I welcome the weird, I welcome the uncomfortable, I welcome the, the stress. Um, because I grow from it and I'm such, such a different person than I was in December of last year. 

The lessons that you learn in sobriety by way of like one day at a time, all that kind of stuff, like to, for the wisdom to know the difference and all of these things, it's just added tools to my, my ability to process and my ability to handle and keep mind, like I haven't been able to do that for the majority of my life. I haven't allowed myself to get that opportunity. To, um, so it, you know, when Anna just like, why aren't you like, why can't you see it like this? Or why aren't you, you know, it's just like, I've never done that. So this is all new to me learning, learning a lot.

Nora: One of the things Greg is learning, is how to love himself better. For years he was so plagued by shame that all he saw in himself were the negative things. But taking away secrets, and taking away drugs and alcohol, has allowed him to see what his good traits are. 

Greg: I love that I can identify what people need. you know, um, and I'm incredibly good at that and that's why I'm in hospitality. Like the whole thing of hospitality to me is like, I'm going to, you know, identify something that you need before you even thought existed. And now I'm going to show you that this is going to transform this for you. You'll never see a carrot the same way. You know what I mean? People in hospitality, their lives are fucked up. Like, it's, it's just true, because they're poor. Everybody's poor. And, you know, I've got one dishwasher who's like, the fucking man. He's such good person. He's got five kids. His w they don't they got kicked out of their house. They're living at an extended stay. And like... Am gonna pay his rent one week to help him out? Yeah, I am. Am I gonna give him a hundred bucks to go buy groceries? Yeah. Yeah, I am. Because guess what?If I can help a human being who needs it more than I do, that's what gonna do. If I see avenue to become better person, I'm just gonna fucking do it because I'm tired of feeling like a piece of shit all the time. 

The level of freedom is so intense of being who you are. Can you, can you, can you fathom, it makes me cry at night, like, can you have any idea what it's like for thirty fucking years to want to kill yourself because something doesn't feel right? For thirty years, every day, can you imagine that? 

And Anna gave me that gift of relieving me from that. And so in the discussions of like, what do we do financially and all that, it's like, you already gave me everything I need. And I don't want anything else. Like, I don't need anything. Because I've been able to be who I am and been able to accept it and to not be ashamed of who I am. I'm ashamed of the pain that I've caused, but I'm not ashamed of who I am. And that's, that's the most important thing about all of this. 

Nora: Seven years ago, Anna and Greg stood in front of each other and said: "i will love everything, all of you, always." 

Like all married people, they had no idea how these vows would apply to their lives. 

They didn't know all the pain and suffering that would be included in "everything". 

They didn’t know themselves well enough to know the “all of you” that the other person was agreeing to love.

But what felt certain to both of them, and is still certain now, is the "always."

Anna: I didn't get it wrong. Like I met Greg and I thought this is a person that I wanna know forever. And I still feel that way.

Greg: maybe we're not going to be, spending every day together every week together, but like every week, there's like 10 things that happen where I'm just like, Oh, I got to text this to Anna. Like, Oh my God, Anna's going to love this and . she will always be my best friend.

Nora: Their marriage didn't last their entire lives, but it is not a failure. If one definition of a successful marriage is a relationship where two people can be themselves, feel safe, and help the other grow, Anna and Greg nailed it. 

When it really mattered they showed up for each other, they supported each other, and they approached their hurt and pain as lovingly as they could. 

It's all any of us can ask for in a relationship: everything, all of you, always. 

Nora: Thank you Greg for sharing so much with us. If you struggle with substance abuse or suicidal thoughts, we've linked to some resources in our show notes. 

This episode was produced by Claire McInerny. It was mixed by Marcel Malekebu. The rest of our team is me, Megan Palmer and Michelle Plantan. We are a production of Feelings and Co, an independent production company. Our Supporting Producers are Kim Morris, Bethany Nickerson, Rachel Humphrey, Jamie Zimmerman, and David Far. 

Supporting producers financially support the show at the highest level. If you want to support our show, consider becoming a TTFA Premium member. There's two ways to do- first you can sign up in the Apple Podcast app. There you get access to our back catalog, ad free episodes and bonus episodes. If you want to be more involved, our Patreon community gets all the same perks, plus live, monthly office hours with Nora, discussions with other Terribles other random bonus content I feel like putting on there! 

Our bonus episodes included a Mailbag episode where Nora and Marcel hear from listeners about their divorce experiences. And next week's bonus episode is an interview with a financial advisor who specializes in divorce. 

Check out our other show, the Terrible Reading Club, because this month we discuss two books about divorce. The first is an interview with Harrison Scott Key, who wrote about his wife cheating on him and saving the marriage. And another episode with Betsy Crane, who wrote an amazing memoir about her divorce. 

We have links to become a TTFA premium member in the show notes. 


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