Into the Void

One thing we know about grief is that it needs a witness. That inside every griever is a nearly uncontrollable urge to make the people around us understand what we had and what we have now. In this episode, we are all David’s witnesses.

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Transcripts may not appear in their final version and are subject to change.

I’m Nora McInerny, and this is “Terrible, Thanks For Asking.” 

Grief has this way of forcing us into a world we did not choose, and a world from which we have no escape. It’s like being washed out to sea. There on the shore are all the pieces and players of your old life, watching from dry land. Maybe the waves of your loss will lap at their ankles. Maybe they’ll swim out to try to see you or save you … but there’s a part of this sea that is yours, and yours alone.

The universal experience is also as unique as every person who experiences it.

And if I have learned anything from my own ocean and from dipping my toes into the experiences of others, it is that our grief needs a witness. Inside every loss is a story that longs to be told, inside every griever is a nearly uncontrollable urge to make the people around us understand what we had, and what we have now.

In 2020, David’s wife, Marion, was diagnosed with Glioblastoma. It’s a word I only know because I had to look it up when my husband Aaron was diagnosed in 2014. It’s shorthand for horrible, aggressive, incurable brain cancer.  

David and Marion had been together for 39 years when Marion died two months after the diagnosis.

And nearly a year after her death, David wrote me this email. 

David: I was just referred to your 2018 Ted talk on “moving on.” Our situations are similar but not 100%. I am 72 (my wife was the "older woman" by five weeks – it was kind of an annual joke with us that all our birthdays followed each other). Marion also died of a glioblastoma although she only lived a bit more than two months. She suffered a stroke in between her two surgeries. And in one of these ironic moments of life, one person suggested to me that Marion was lucky in going fast. And I thought to myself, “I don’t know how to respond to this. Lucky?” I get what you mean by "moving on" in going forward. Right now I am two months away from the first anniversary of Marion's passing, and I've analogized my life since then to a sine wave in electronics – up and down, up and down, etc. At the beginning I was too devastated to think about much. Marion and I were together for 39 years. I often say that if it wasn't for meeting her I wouldn't have ever been married and would have become some sort of curmudgeonly bachelor. So like other widowed people, I first recognized that I have to manage the void that is always with me. I remember driving one day up to the North Shore and looking at the empty passenger seat and realizing that fact. I was actually satisfied to come to that realization. So I know what you mean in relation to moving forward. For me that just means that I am managing to live my daily life, nothing more. No, that does not mean a break from Marion or our life together. I always repeat the mantra that she will always be in my heart and mind but will also have to coexist with my present and future, that's all.

That’s all. Just that big, huge, task: to live your present and your future while holding your past.

David’s email wasn’t asking me for a conversation, or asking me to interview him. He was just … reaching out. Looking for a witness to where he was, and what he was holding. He had an experience similar to mine and so, so different.

So this episode, we’re asking you to be a witness, to a story that’s fully unique and also painfully universal: Two people fall in love. Two people build a life together. One person dies, and the other has to live without them. 

This is David and Marion’s love story.

David: We met. We were in our early 30s. She happened to come into a synagogue that I was started attending. And I just noticed her from a distance. The second time we actually did meet, we were attending a speaker or a meeting. She made it kind of obvious she wanted to meet me. Took a seat next to me and started mentioning a few things. In any event, after that I said, “Do you want to go out for a drink?” and she says, "Yeah." And we get to talk more. Turned out that both our fathers were butchers. Hers was a bit different than mine. But, you know, we had something in common. And ... yeah. I told her, I said I'd give her a call tomorrow night. And she finally figured that, you know, most guys say things like that and they never do call you again. But I did. 

David: I never really had much experience in terms of having long-term girlfriends. I didn't. Fact, my family had given up on me. [chuckles] You know, the thing was, they said, “David is not programmed to be married.” My other siblings were married during what my wife and I used to refer to as normal age, you know, in the twenties. But no. I spent my teen years, I was very shy. And I didn't get over that until I was in my twenties – you know, recognized the other gender. So that's, you know, it took a long time to find someone. 

But David did find someone. And by the third date – for David at least – it was a done deal. 

David: Altogether we were together for almost 40 years. That's quite a long time. We would always go out, you know? I mean, whether it's movies, go out to eat, we always liked to do that. We weren't people who just stayed at home all the time. And we'd do things on our own. I mean, apart from each other, too. So we were cool. Like she had an avocation of arts and crafts, you know? She was always going to craft shows. And she also had an attitude towards fashion that's art. She was someone that, you know, didn't think that it was not highbrow or something to be interested in fashion. You know, she considered it a part of art. And once in a while I would sometimes go to a craft show with her. We had a way of … we had a strategy. I would take a couple of turns around the exhibitions with her, and then I would have a book with me. And we'd have our phones. And I’d say goodbye. That was it! Because she could spend forever, you know. And I go off and read my book and, you know, afterwards, you know, when she had satiated her, you know, interests or bought some things, you know, then we got together and, you know, left the show. So there were a lot of things we did together and a lot of things we did on our own. She had no interest in sports, but she tolerated my interest in sports. You know? She always knew I was a big hockey fan. And sometimes she’d even sit in the same room if I was watching a game, but I had the sound off. That was a compromise. And, you know, I didn't care because I got tired of listening to the announcers and their B.S. and everything, and I know what’s going on. So I’d just watch it. It really was what we want to think of as a marriage of two people. You know? People might have thought we were opposites, but in reality, you know, we … we weren’t so opposite when it came down to life itself. 

Nora: How else were you different? 

David: She talked a lot more than I did. [laughs] Even though we didn't share identical politics, she was always. Open to discussing everything you know? Like she was a big Facebooker, and she would get involved with people who are Trump supporters and have civilized discussions with them. I can't. Okay? But, you know, she could, right? And I always say to people, “We all oughta take a page out of her book and maybe society, that would be a lot better off.” And more often than not, we saw eye to eye on the real issues of life. I mean, the politics and, you know. Getting along together, raising a family. You know, our outlook on morals and our same outlook on you know, even God. She was genuine. You know? I used to call her an idealist. I have a thing about idealists. She was idealistic in some ways, which I wasn't. I've had experiences in my life that, you know, turn me off, particularly people in groups. Sometimes I would have more of a hard-bitten view of people. You know. And she would try a more hopeful view. You know? She was an idealist, but she didn't let her ideals and idealism carry her away.

David and Marion have a longish, happy life together. There are craft shows and  family gatherings and hockey games on TV. The two of them find their groove and work through the things that all couples do. And they grow together. They grow up together.

And one day, 39 years after that first date … they’re sitting on the couch.

David:  We were watching one of our British mysteries. And I noticed in her eyes — like for a minute, they seemed opaque. And then it went away. 

David takes note that something is wrong, but it happens so quickly that he just moves on and forgets about it. And then a month later, Marion starts to complain that her tooth hurts. So she makes an appointment with their dentist and gets in the car to head out.

David: And what happened was, instead of going to the dentist, she took a right turn towards the town where she did a lot of her work. And she got in an accident which totaled our car. And the EMT said she looked a little wobbly, they're going to take her up to a local hospital. 

The doctors look her over and decide that Marion is okay. No broken bones, nothing evidently majorly wrong. So they discharge her after about an hour, and Marion and David head home together. And for a few days afterwards, Marion complains about muscle soreness.

David: She was in an accident, so I didn't think it was strange that she complained about muscle soreness or anything like that. But then the next couple of days, she was complaining about being so tired that she was having trouble getting out of bed. And this accident happened on Tuesday. And by that Saturday, she said to me, "I don't feel good. We better go to the hospital." And, you know, I took her to the ER and ... that's when they decided to do a CT scan, an MRI on her. And then they found the tumor. There was fluid that developed around the tumor. And we tried the catheter, a dexamethasone, which is a cousin of prednisone. But it didn't work. So the surgeon asked that we bring her back to the hospital and put a drain on her. Right? And she basically was suffering a stroke. If you've ever been around people who are suffering a stroke, their personalities change completely. And she was angry. She started yelling at me, and she was also losing her balance. And I had a friend of mine on that Friday morning, we practically had to take her hostage to bring her back to the hospital. I'll tell you from the second week of having the glioblastoma, I knew what I was up against. So I went and did what I called the death stuff. What's the death stuff? I got a double plot in the cemetery. I set up the funeral because I knew, you know, sooner or later, she's going to die. The prescribed length of life for people with glioblastoma is supposedly 12 to 14 months. But I think the fact that she also had suffered a stroke sort of cut that back. She spent basically the next two months in the hospital. 

The treatment for glioblastoma hasn’t changed much in the past decades. It’s brutal, truly, and it’s also the only option you have: surgery, chemo, radiation.

David: You know, I sometimes get mad at myself, but a lot of people say they couldn't blame me. I insisted they try radiation with her. And when I look back upon this, and she was really terrified. When you do an MRI of your skull, you know, you get into an enclosure – you’re mostly enclosed. So I can relate to that. And she had to hold the nurse's hand. She was that scared. And I realized that, you know, I knew what was coming. I should have found just a good hospice and you know … but I didn't.

We’ll be right back.
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We’re back. It has never been easy to lose the person you love to brain cancer or any other way. But Marion is dying in 2020.

David: Originally, they had called me from the rehab center and said, “How would you like to come down and meet with Marion downstairs. You keep a mask on.” I said, "Sure, you bet." But when I got there, she wasn't out front. They told me, ‘We're going to have to put what they call PPE, personal protective gear on you.” You know, those, you know, gown and mask and everything. And I went up to her room, and I could see she was having a seizure. She looked … it was terrible. And that's, you know, when I called my daughter and tell her to come up here. Basically she lasted up until about 1:45 a.m.

David: When she was in a hospital, I was living here with myself and a dog, you know. The dog was actually her dog, even though I took care of her. Good care of her. I'm left with the dog and not Marion. I love the dog. But, you know, it's not Marion.

David: In my life, before I was married, you know, I had experience of both here and elsewhere of living on my own. It's nothing I don't promulgate as a lifestyle, but I can deal with it. You know? But I'll tell you, one thing that's stays on my mind about during that time when she was in the hospital and still alive, I really looked forward to the evenings. Because I didn't have to talk to any doctors or nurses anymore for the day. And I really … that was … you know … at least could rest my mind for the evening, until the next day when you start all over again. 

David: A lot of people complain about the days being so long. I've had the opposite. I feel like the time was like, especially in the first year, time was moving faster. It was like I didn't want to go to bed. But I don't know. That just is my experience. A lot of people say the second year is worse, and I have to agree with that. I think I was so busy in the first year clearing up financial stuff and taxes and all that stuff, and then all of a sudden, this just felt like more of an impact in the second year. And now we're coming to the close of the second year. And as I said, it's kind of hanging over me for now. 

David: Somebody told me, you know, Marion only lived a little more than two months. She didn't get the prescribed 12 to 14 months of life that you’re supposed to be able to get with a GBL. And he said to me, "Well, you're lucky she didn't have to live long." And I didn't know how to respond to that. I mean ... yeah. In one sense. Maybe sure. But lucky? What do you mean, lucky? I lost my wife.. What do you mean lucky? You know. 

David: And then there’s dating. I think I made a mistake with dating. I was as they say too early, and I pulled back because, you know, experiences showed me that. Although I can safely say that dating is still dating. The act of dating itself. But what I found was getting beyond the date, you know, and how to navigate this was really kind of strange to me. I’ll tell you, part of the reason I did start dating back then was that I wanted to reach out and meet people. Just meet people. Because not only my wife but a lot of our friends passed away. And so, you know, we’re kind of down to that part in life. I realized that we’re … I saw my parents’ friends die, and they were missing them. And that’s the way I do too. But you know, it’s meeting new people, and getting to make friends. But it can be a very complicated process. It’s not like we’re in our 20s or 30s. It really isn’t. You don’t want to get married again. But somehow, some women say that they want to find the last love. And I just find this baffling. [laughs] Love is not something that you go to the delicatessen and get a quarter pound of love. You know? It really isn’t. And marriage is not, you know, in the cards, as I said. I was married. But to find someone that could be a companion or special friend, you know? Maybe I still have someone I can find.

Moving forward doesn’t mean you HAVE to find a new person. It doesn’t mean you need to remarry, or find a companion or a special friend. I would like if we could all go to go to the deli and order a quarter pound of love, but instead, we just have the task of living our lives without the person we had shared that life with.

David: We always talk about the void. And in fact, I realized, early on, we like to go to a certain beach in the summer. And so after she passed away, I saw making a routine sort of on Saturdays just to drive up there, even if it was off-season. Matter of fact, I kind of prefer peaches off-season. One time, I was driving, you know, and I looked toward the passenger seat and I realized Marian’s not there. But I also had an experience in my house where at that time I was still belonging to a bereavement group. And I told the people, I said, you know, “I went from one end of the house to the other. And the void seemed almost measurable, as if I could have taken a tape measure out and measured it.” You know, I wouldn't open her closet door for a long time. And then finally I said to myself, “Oh, hell with it.” I opened the door and it said, “Huh? You don't scare me.” And I closed the door. I don't believe in I don't believe in ghosts or anything like that. And I don't know what there is beyond or there's above us. I wish I could ask Marion, but I can't. 

David: One thing I tell to not just younger people but anybody that’s around and they’re married: Don’t ever take anyone for granted. Really. Because you never know how life works out. Life is complicated, you know? When you become widowed, it’s kind of like now I’ve told a few friends that now I feel like I’m really up against life. Before, life was this thing around us, but now I’m up against the wall. That’s the way I feel about it. Life can be very trying at times. I never thought that I would be without Marion because we were planning our retirement together and taking a couple of road trips but, you know, I’ll do a couple of trips on my own, or maybe my daughter and granddaughter one trip, and that’s what we’ll do. 

This has been “Terrible, Thanks for Asking.” I’m Nora McInerny. And I want to thank David for sharing Marion with us and for reaching out. And also, I don’t know, there are a million Davids. There are a million Marions, and also there is only one. And sometimes I just like to listen to stories like this one to remind me of that, to remind me that every person that you meet is carrying their own story, their own version of this. So, thank you David for sharing that with us. Our team here at Terrible thanks for asking is Marcel Malekebu, our senior producer, Jordan Turgeon, Megan Palmer, Claire McInerny, Larissa Witcher, and Eugene Kidd. We are a production of Feelings & Co, known as F and Co. The F could also stand for … flowers. That’s not as funny. Honestly, it’s not as easy. I am not recording this in my closet. I am not recording this in my home. I am recording this at Malekebu Studios in Minneapolis. In the background you might hear a rowdy 2-year-old who has taken a snooze and is ready to fricken party, okay? What does she want to tell you about her Moana t-shirt? She’s wearing a Moana t-shirt. She’s gonna tell you that. She wants to tell you that. You can find our show at TTFA.org. If you rate and review and share our podcast with someone that you think would love it, that is very helpful. And if you would like to support us in a financial way you can go to TTFA.org/pmreium. We offer ad-free episodes, bonus episodes and more. And that “and more” is quarterly mail. And I love sending mail, and I’m trying to make sure I send something good, something worthwhile, something wonderful every quarter. Our theme music is by Geoffrey Lamar Wilson, as always. You should look him up. He has a new band called Lamar that is really lovely that you should be also looking into. If you want to email us it’s terrible@feelingsand.co, and our phone number is 612-568-4441. You can add to a story, you can comment on a story, you can ask us questions, whatever you like.