Nathan

Nathan always knew he was different growing up. He also knew the LDS church had certain expectations of him: He'd do his mission, find a girl, get married and settle down. Being gay? Not part of that plan.

Nathan does everything he can to be straight, including sending himself to "conversion therapy". It, of course, doesn't work. Then ... he starts to uncover his true self. And his true self is beautiful.

This episode was originally broadcast in 2018. To hear a recent interview with Nathan, become a TTFA Premium member. Head to Apple Podcasts and sign up for Premium right in our feed.

—

We’re lucky to only work with sponsors and brands we know and love. Using our links and codes saves you money and supports our independent production!

BetterHelp: This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com/ttfa to get started with 10% off your first month. Learn more at BetterHelp.com

Squarespace: Go to Squarespace.com/TTFA and use offer code TTFA to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

You can find our full sponsor list here.

—

Find all our shows and SHOP OUR MERCH at feelingsand.co.

—

Find TTFA on social: TTFA on Instagram | TTFA on Facebook

—

Transcripts may not appear in their final version and are subject to change.

—

Nora: [00:00:00] Hello? It's Nora. It is summertime and the team had feelings and now is not taking a vacation. We are working on the next few months of episodes and planning out the next 12 months of work for our team. So while we're out there finding and producing new stories for you, we are also going to be sharing a few of our older favorites, including this episode. We'll be back with brand new episodes the first week of August, first Tuesday of August, and we are still putting out bonus episodes on our premium feed. You can get the full archive of terrible things for asking and bonus episodes anytime at TBTF dot org slash premium. I'm Nora McNerney and this is terrible. Thanks for asking. So no spoilers, but today's episode is about suicide and there is also some strong language. I think I remember some F's, some A's smashes, and not even by me. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure this time they're not mine. There's also some graphic sexual content, and I think that's it. I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud. I just know that a lot of you listen to the show with your kids, which is so interesting. Hello, children. And I don't know. I just want you to be able to choose what your kids do and don't hear. So here we go, step by step a little. [00:01:26][86.8]

Speaker 2: [00:01:27] Bit before I get to you guys. [00:01:30][3.2]

Nora: [00:01:32] The first time I knew I was straight was probably preschool. I had a crush on Joey McIntyre, the cutest member of NKOTB, and I was like, Wow, I don't know what's happening inside of me, but I want that for. Don't you know that that time has arrived? Did it, it it it it, it it. Okay, man. Oh, man. First crushes. They are illuminating. We don't really know what it means necessarily. I wasn't like, Mom, Dad, sit down. I have news for you. I am straight. I'm a heterosexual, and I'm going to grow up. I'm going to have some McIntyre babies, okay? Don't even give me any crap about it, Steve. He's obviously Irish. It's more like this little flicker of what's inside us with a little bit of insight into our nature and our future. And I think most of us know pretty early in life what that nature is. Nathan Sure did. [00:02:37][64.9]

Nathan: [00:02:38] My first time I knew I was gay was I was four years old and I had my crush in preschool. His name was Carlos. He had, like, these, like, beautiful, curly brown hair. And in that moment, I knew that I was different. I didn't know what gay was, but that was the first time I knew I didn't like girls. [00:02:54][16.3]

Nora: [00:02:56] At age four, little Nathan knew something else. He knew that he was a mormon kid living in Utah, which, I mean, most four year olds. [00:03:07][10.3]

Nathan: [00:03:07] Know where they live. [00:03:07][0.8]

Nora: [00:03:08] That's not the interesting part here. Mormons don't accept homosexuality, or more specifically, to be fair. They don't accept acting on any same sex attraction impulses as they call them. They're super open about this, by the way. They have a Web site called Mormon and Gay, where they clearly state their position alongside inspirational photography and testimonials from their community. It's all out there and their position comes down basically to this. God loves everyone. God loves all of us. God thinks we are all great. Two thumbs up and we're all a part of God's plan. Gay people are welcome. They're welcome to be fully participating members of the LDS Church. Like. Come on in. Join us. If you are recognizing and living according to the Word of God, which the Mormon faith believes means abstinence until marriage. They also believe marriage is between a man and a woman. So Nathan can be a fully practicing Mormon if he's not a fully practicing gay person. And he doesn't know this at age four. But when he gets a little older, that conflict between who he is and what he believes starts to get clearer. [00:04:27][78.7]

Nathan: [00:04:28] Before I got baptized. When I was seven, my gay uncle and his then boyfriend, now husband, visited from Atlanta. And on my mom's side, they're totally chill because, like, they grew up in San Diego. No one's Mormon except my mom and her parents. And they're just these fabulous Jewish people that just love everyone. But then my dad's side, that was the first time my dad ever met a gay person. And. We went to a family party on my dad's side after hanging with them, and they were just his siblings and stuff, kind of like mocked it and kind of talked about them being gay and in love, like in a grotesque type of way. And in that moment, I was like, Crap, that's what I am. So I must be grotesque. That was the first time I really felt what it was like to be a gay Mormon. [00:05:22][53.3]

Nora: [00:05:25] Nathan knew that he was different, that he was gay. And even if he didn't know exactly what his faith believed about gay people, he saw firsthand that being gay and Mormon were obviously at odds. And naturally, given his dad's family's reaction to his gay uncle, Nathan assumed that being gay was also at odds with being a part of his family. So he decided that the best thing he could do, the safest thing he could do, was to pretend to be like what he could see in everyone else around him, to pretend to be straight. [00:06:02][36.4]

Nathan: [00:06:03] I knew for sure that no matter what, I would marry a woman, and I knew that I would do anything that my faith asked of me. And I knew that no matter what, I would find a way to be in love with a woman because that's what was approved by God and nothing else. And so I surrounded myself with women like girls at the time, obviously. But growing up, I did it as kind of a way to, like, pick out which one would be the best. [00:06:32][29.6]

Nora: [00:06:33] Beard. [00:06:33][0.0]

Nathan: [00:06:35] And so which one would be the best cover up so that I could, like, have that, you know. [00:06:40][5.0]

Nora: [00:06:41] Now, Nathan had a specific look in mind for his childhood beard. [00:06:45][4.2]

Nathan: [00:06:45] And so she's going to look like Britney. Like it's going to be a great old time and we'll be best friends. So I always had these friends who were like, blond, like, calmly skin, like Britney. So throughout my life, in, like, junior high and stuff, like I had girlfriends, but like, we never kissed or anything. We were just we're like, besties. And I, like, just, like, made up the excuse that, like, I couldn't kiss for religious purposes. But then I went and kissed my boyfriend behind their back. Wait. [00:07:11][26.1]

Nora: [00:07:13] Did he say boyfriend? Yes, he did. Because Nathan had a boyfriend in middle school and the two of them met in the most magical teen movie way I could imagine. [00:07:26][12.9]

Nathan: [00:07:27] So we found each other through gym class. So we, like, were in there, and it was after one of our gym classes, and we kind of gave each other the eye, you know, like, you know, when you give someone a look and you just know that you're thinking the same thing. [00:07:39][12.1]

Nora: [00:07:40] Who gave it first? [00:07:41][0.5]

Nathan: [00:07:41] Me. I'm a very, like, upfront person when it comes to love. So I like, gave him a look and then he gave it back. And then we did that for like about a week. [00:07:52][10.2]

Nora: [00:07:52] What did it feel like to get that look back from him? [00:07:54][2.1]

Nathan: [00:07:54] Oh, so empowering. So empowering. [00:07:57][2.8]

Nora: [00:07:58] And were you like, Oh my God, this is what it must feel like for. [00:08:01][2.5]

Nathan: [00:08:01] I was like, This is Sleepless in Seattle. I was like, This is the love Meg Ryan is feeling. Because like, for me, I never felt that with any girl. No matter what I did, no matter what I tried, I couldn't feel what everyone was talking about and what was shown in the movies. But in that moment, in that locker room, it was like a little spark of, like, contentment. [00:08:24][22.3]

Nora: [00:08:25] From that little spark of contentment grew just a sweet adolescent relationship. From the outside. Nathan and his boyfriend just looked like two bro's hanging out like best friends. But truly. [00:08:42][17.4]

Nathan: [00:08:44] No. So we, like, held hands, cuddled, never had sex, but we just. We're like. Q and relationship and and it was so innocent and pure and it was just like it kind of felt like just us against everything else in the world. [00:09:01][17.6]

Nora: [00:09:02] Nathan knew in the back of his mind that this wouldn't last, not just because it's rare for seventh grade relationships to last past seventh grade, but because he would grow up. And so it his boyfriend and they'd each get married to a lady. But also when you're in seventh grade and you've got your first boyfriend, it's hard not to dream about the future. Even if you know that what you dream of your future is not at all what your future is going to look like. [00:09:35][33.1]

Nathan: [00:09:37] Like, I imagine that's like graduating high school together and then going to the same college and then like getting in a cute apartment outside of Utah and just like, running away and like, just like maybe adopting, like, I don't know, like some sort of, like, bigger dog that's like four mountains. [00:09:54][17.3]

Nora: [00:09:57] Nathan and his boyfriend did not end up with a big dog that's meant for mountains. It ended poorly, which, again, is not really uncommon for middle school. Nathan, in modern terms, ghosted his boyfriend not because he didn't care about him, but because he was afraid. Nathan was getting older and getting older has significance in the Mormon Church. [00:10:23][25.7]

Nathan: [00:10:24] So like I could at 14, I could bless the sacrament instead of just passing it out to the congregation. And it just really scared me that I would have that on my plate. Plus a guy because I thought I was already doing what God didn't want me to do. And then to do that and plus move up in his church like I was scared of my religion more than my love. [00:10:49][24.7]

Nora: [00:10:52] So moving up in the church without a secret boyfriend. Teenage Nathan tried to not be gay. [00:11:01][9.5]

Nathan: [00:11:02] I started talking to this girl I met on a Facebook chat group, pick and choose my same age, and we connected because both of our moms or her mom just passed. But my mom was just really sick and we're like, Oh, sick moms. We connect with, like, terminal illnesses. Yay! And then we started chatting and I was like, This girl's perfect. She'd be the perfect beard. And she lives, like, out of state. So no physical contact. So I told my friends at high school that, like I had a girlfriend, I showed pictures of her. [00:11:37][34.6]

Nora: [00:11:39] But of course, the long distance girlfriend doesn't make him straight. [00:11:44][5.0]

Nathan: [00:11:46] I didn't know how. I thought I could just push it away and pretend like it wasn't there and, like, cover it up. And so I put on the facade of how everyone saw me as this happy, smiling. Nathan and Nathan never showed any emotion but happiness. So everyone thought Nathan was great and Nathan was fine. And so I just kept that up forever. [00:12:12][25.7]

Nora: [00:12:14] Pushing his feelings away and covering them up didn't make Nathan straight either. It made everything worse on the outside. Nathan appeared to be like every other faithful Mormon boy in his community and on the inside. [00:12:28][13.5]

Nathan: [00:12:29] I felt like a trash human. I felt as if me as a person, that his living was not worth living. I felt as if who I was and who I am. Was basically sentenced to a life of damnation. And that I could change if I really wanted to. And that. If I didn't change, I wasn't trying hard enough. And that. I was just a mistake that got accidentally made. [00:13:10][41.2]

Nora: [00:13:13] Nathan thought about death every day. He struggled with severe anorexia, sometimes eating just two meals a week. And he tried conversion therapy. Not in official conversion therapy. He just made up his own. [00:13:29][16.0]

Nathan: [00:13:30] I like force myself to watch straight porn once a week. I sometimes we went to like high school parties or like just random parties and, like, forced myself to make out with women or girls. They weren't women yet, and I forced myself to do those two things at least once a week with the making out and twice a week with the straight porn. [00:13:50][20.4]

Nora: [00:13:53] It didn't work, and that was devastating to him because he just wanted to be the person that he thought God wanted him to be. [00:14:02][9.9]

Nathan: [00:14:03] You know that feeling when you're like running and running and running like one thing I'm running through like a pit of thinking sand and nothing's happening and I'm just stuck. And then on the other hand, when I was with a guy, I literally felt like I had a jetpack. And I just, like, zoomed off and it was just like Whitney Houston singing All the Man That I Need. And she's just so in love and empower and like Rain is shooting through her house and she's in love. [00:14:32][29.3]

Nora: [00:14:37] So. That was high school for Nathan. Messaging with his long distance girlfriend, watching straight porn, making out with girls at parties, and just desperately wishing he were straight. And then he graduated and high school was over. And for a lot of non-Mormon closeted kids, this would mean you are free. You are done with high school, go off to college and be yourself. But Nathan was a mormon and he had other responsibilities. [00:15:09][32.1]

Nathan: [00:15:11] So in the Mormon faith, now men can go on a mormon mission while men are required to go on a mission for two years. [00:15:18][6.5]

Nora: [00:15:19] A mormon mission is overseen by a mission president, and this guy helps the young men in their efforts to spread the word of Mormonism. The boys don't usually drive cars, and they have a specific uniform. They have conservative suits or white shirt sleeves with a big square name tag. And their mission on this mission is to convert people to Mormonism. Nathan's mission takes him to the Florida Panhandle in southern Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia. It's hot and humid and he's got to wear a fawn suit and ride a bike everywhere. And it's intense in every way. The days are highly, highly regimented. Nathan lives with another Mormon elder, which is what they're called. They are each other's companions, which is to say they are roommates who do everything together like everything all day, just in case they're ever alone and could possibly masturbate. [00:16:21][61.9]

Nathan: [00:16:22] So we wake up at 6 a.m., we do exercise for 30 minutes, shower, get dressed, eat breakfast within 30 minutes. And then at 7 a.m., we have scripture study individual. And then from like 7 to 8 and then eight, 830, we have comp study. It's like we read a scripture together or like we talk about a topic of religious standing and then we go out and you just have to process like until our lunch and then after lunch you go back out and practice. So you just knock on doors and then after that you go for dinner and then after that you have to process it again until 9 p.m. and then lights out by 930 and that's Monday through Sunday. [00:17:09][46.9]

Nora: [00:17:10] In other words, that's seven days a week. Okay. I checked on the calendar. I was like. That's not even a day off. So Monday through Sunday, they were out talking to people about God, which is not my personal idea of fun, but so this is how Nathan would do it. He used a voice that he now calls his straight guy voice. [00:17:31][21.5]

Nathan: [00:17:33] Okay. Okay. Okay. Hi, Dora. My name is Elder Weddington, and I'm from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And would you like to hear a message of God today? [00:17:45][11.5]

Nora: [00:17:47] Nathan's efforts had mixed results. I'm not going to blame the voice, okay? It's just that not everyone out there is a mormon, and not everyone wants to talk to a stranger about God. [00:17:59][11.8]

Nathan: [00:17:59] I went out there and there were people that were atheists, There were Presbyterians, there are Baptists, there was Pentecostals, there was Jehovah Witnesses, there was everything under the sun. And I didn't even know about them. And honestly, I knew about Baptists from like movies, but I didn't know about any of the other religions. And I didn't even fathom that someone could be an atheist. I was just like, Oh, like Jesus, take the wheel because your boy is burning. [00:18:24][24.4]

Nora: [00:18:25] Oh gosh. I just think of little baby Nathan having his mind blown, going door to door, meeting all kinds of people. And there's one interaction that he had that really stuck with him. [00:18:36][11.0]

Nathan: [00:18:37] We come upon this gay man, and I didn't know he was gay at first, but as soon as he talked, I knew, which is bad to say, because not all gay men have a gay voice. I admit I have a very flamboyant voice, but he did, too. And I was just like, oh, so we like I just start with my spiel and I was like, Oh, would you like to hear about the Book of Mormon and a message from Jesus Christ today? And he's like, Oh, like, I don't know if it's for me. I'm gay and usually like Christ and I don't get along, you know? And I was like, I respect that. But like, I do believe that, like God and Christ love everyone. Would you like to just hear a message? Because, like, as a missionary in the Mormon Church, you also, like, kind of have to hit a quota, like of how many people you spoke to a day. And if you get like a new person to teach. And so we were like super close to the quota. So that's more what I was thinking about. He was washing his car and I just shared a simple scripture. I believe it was. John 316. [00:19:34][57.7]

Nora: [00:19:37] John 316 is the thing that people hold up at sports games. I have no idea why, but I can tell you what John 316 says. Are you ready? God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. [00:19:55][18.5]

Nathan: [00:19:56] But I read that to him and he's like, Oh, thank you. I'd love you guys to come back sometime. And then I'm walking away with my companion, feeling confident myself. I was like, Yeah, well, we just got another person and my campaign is like, Oh, he's not worth our time to even, like, continue because he's gay. And either he's going to fall in love with one of us and he's not going to be full because like if he's living that life so he can't be an active member of our church. And in my mind, like. It was like an earthquake because I was just like, Oh. Well, you just stated what you feel about me then. And you just did that whole judgmental stuff. And so I tried to combat it and I was just like, actually, like if you wanted to, like maybe there's a way, you know, maybe, maybe God does love him still and fully and maybe there is a place for him in the church and he's just like, Elder, It's a waste of our time. [00:20:56][59.9]

Nora: [00:20:58] Nathan felt like what he always feared was true, that there would be no place for him in his community if he were openly gay. But when he thinks about that guy, how he was like, Oh, Mormonism, thanks, but no thanks. Nathan doesn't just feel sad and scared for himself. He also feels. [00:21:18][20.3]

Nathan: [00:21:19] Jealous. I was really jealous that he decided to, like, live his life and just be himself and not giving a flying fuck about what? Someone else. What? He didn't care. Probably if he ever heard my companion. What? He said he would just be happy and proud. And for me, I was like, it resonated with me because I got what he was saying. Because for me, I was out here, I was teaching people. I. I thought the church was a good church and I believed in it, but I knew that I was different and I knew that the church would accept me if they knew who Nathan was. It was literally like I was 24 seven in a play. [00:22:02][43.1]

Nora: [00:22:05] That acting gets exhausting. And the lonely, the kind of lonely you can really only feel when you're spending all your time with people who have no idea who you really are. Nathan is with his companion all the time, but he's also alone. And the two of them have a cell phone, but it is strictly to use to talk with people who want to meet up for some Mormon teachings or in case of emergency. [00:22:32][27.4]

Nathan: [00:22:34] But your boy called his mother every day bawling. She didn't know that. It was like because I was gay. She just thought it was because I was homesick and really depressed. But I called her every day for those six months. [00:22:48][14.3]

Nora: [00:22:49] I approve of this as a mother. Just everyone. Pause the show. Call your mom. If you don't have a mom, call your friend's mom. If you don't have any friends, call me. I'm a mom. I count. Nathan's mom has a background in psychology and she tells Nathan, Look, I get it like you're homesick, you're anxious, you're depressed, but you have to take care of it. You have to call the mission president and explain it to him. It doesn't matter that it's taboo to leave early or that the Mormon Church won't pay for a flight home. Just talk to him. Nathan uses that emergency cell phone and contacts the mission president. [00:23:24][34.2]

Nathan: [00:23:25] At the time, I was in Georgia, of all places, in August, gnats were everywhere. Your boy was dying, and I was standing in the middle of this field like smelly manure everywhere. I called him and I was like, Listen here. I cannot do this anymore. I have depression. I have anxiety. I know you think I can do this and I know you think I have the strength and that God will provide. But for me, God and I have spoken and I need to go home so I can take care of myself and, like, not feel this horrible. So I need to go home. And he was like, okay. [00:24:00][34.8]

Nora: [00:24:01] Okay. This seems like a good time to take a break, right? So we're back. Nathan was on his two year mission for six months. For six months. He had to spend all of his time pretending to be a faithful, straight Mormon man. And now, at his request, he was being sent home. And this is a big deal. Your mission is a big deal. It's not like you're just allowed to come and go as you please. It's not like a vacation. It's not even work. It's your calling from your faith. So it's looked down upon when someone ditches early. No matter why they ditch early. And Nathan's family knew part of the truth, that he came home because of his anxiety and his depression. But other people, they just kind of let that rumor mill kick in. [00:25:33][92.2]

Nathan: [00:25:34] They said rumors of me like sleeping with women, which in my mind I was chuckling like no other. [00:25:39][5.3]

Nora: [00:25:41] They are like, Yep, that's me. [00:25:42][1.7]

Nathan: [00:25:43] Like, I'm just fooling around with all of these women all the time. Those are sister missionaries, though, and they just like, I had to have friends just shun me because I came home early. [00:25:56][13.2]

Nora: [00:25:57] Nathan went back to living with his parents. He enrolled in college, he got a job, and he just focused on that. But the only thing that had been resolved was Nathan's location. He wasn't on the mission anymore, but he was still struggling with his sexuality and his religion. He still had so many questions. [00:26:18][21.0]

Nathan: [00:26:19] I was sitting in my parent's living room and there was a it was like a Saturday afternoon, like probably like 3:00. And I was like, you know what? I'm never going to know if I'm actually gay unless I just have just have full on sex with the guy. So I was like, I don't know how to do that, though. And so I googled. I was like, ways to have sex with guys. And then the first thing that came up was Craigslist. And it was like their private area, you know, like where you could, like, search like men for men, women for women, whatever. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So click on that. And there was the first one. It was the first one I was able to click on, clicked on it, and I was like looking right now, super horny, wanting to be a top. And I didn't know what a top was. And so I was like, Okay, sure. And he's like, Email me for like an address and send a face picture. So I sent him a face picture and I was like, Oh, I'm interested. Didn't know what he looked like, though. And he's like, Yeah, you're really cute. Let's meet up. He's like, Here's this address. [00:27:25][65.7]

Nora: [00:27:26] Okay? You get into your car and you and you're like, I'm going to go meet a stranger and have sex. [00:27:30][3.8]

Nathan: [00:27:30] Yeah. I felt educated. I was like, Oh, you know, I went through a website, like, because, like, for me, I remember I grew up very naive. Like, I, I didn't know where, like, even a penis went in vagina. [00:27:42][11.5]

Nora: [00:27:43] Nathan got in his car and drove, but the address he had wasn't a house or an apartment or a hotel or a motel. [00:27:57][13.5]

Nathan: [00:27:58] It was an abandoned cement warehouse. And I parked and I was like, okay, maybe it's nicer on the inside. And he opens the door and it's just nothing in there, just like empty cement rooms. And then he locked the door behind me. I was scared out of my mind. I was like, I was Jason. At this point, you're like. [00:28:21][22.3]

Nora: [00:28:22] You're like fucking Craig. [00:28:22][0.7]

Nathan: [00:28:23] I know what it's like. Craig did me so dirty. I was like, Fuck, Craig. Craig. So he takes me, he locked the door and he's like, Okay, follow me. And so I was like, I guess I'm following him. And then we go into this room and it was just a cement box, literally with like, all beat up Blanca on the ground. And he's like, Lay down there and take off your pants. And then he stripped naked and he's like, Put your legs up. I was like, Why? And then bada bing. By the boom, he topped me. And I am just laying there looking at the cement wall. I'm not making any noises and just like have a couple tears coming out because I felt so dirty. I felt so dirty and I felt so used. My family is. Why am I walking around like, Oh, where were you? I was like, Oh, I just went and got Jamba Juice with some friends. And then we went downstairs, showered and pretend like it never happened. [00:29:19][56.6]

Nora: [00:29:20] No, no, no, no, no. Nathan's first time was awful. And it also just is a fact finding mission successful. [00:29:31][10.5]

Nathan: [00:29:33] I was like, you know, I was attracted and it was a crazy experience and it was scary, but it proved to me that I was attracted to males. And yet it wasn't the best experience to figure that out. But it did it for me. [00:29:48][15.7]

Nora: [00:29:50] He has confirmation. He's gay and Mormon. So. What is your faith like at this point? [00:30:03][13.8]

Nathan: [00:30:05] Struggling, struggling beyond words. So I thought because I did that, that I should repent. So I went to my bishop. I called him that night, actually, and I said I had sex with the woman. And I need to repent for what I have done because I feel horrible about it. And he doesn't know it's a male. And in my mind I was like, You know what? God knows it's a male and sex is sex. And so I started my repentance process and the repentance process for having sex in the Mormon Church is long. So it's 12 months. And you're not allowed to take the sacrament during those 12 months. You're not allowed to do anything at church. You can arrive, but you can't speak. And so you just have to sit there during the 3 hours and just listen. During those 12 months, I went to work, school and church, and that's it. And nothing else. Nothing more. I didn't really hang out with anyone unless someone asked me. And I just went through the process trying to focus fully on God. [00:31:15][70.3]

Nora: [00:31:18] Nathan finished his repentance, but he didn't finish with being gay. He knew he had more to do and the time had come to ask for help. Like actual help. He needed to let someone in to tell someone for the first time the truth about what he was struggling with. So does something really hard. He called his bishop again and goes to see him again. [00:31:44][26.3]

Nathan: [00:31:46] I'm in his office at the church and I was like, I need to tell you something. And I didn't tell him I had sex with the guy, but I was like, I deal with same sex attraction. And so I told him that and he sat there for a minute because he's an older man and he was like, okay. He's like, I'm going to think about that. And we can meet up at a later date. And in my mind, I was like, What the fuck? Like, no one's knowing this. And then the first person I freaking tell just is like, We'll get back to this at a later date. I was like, Fine. Okay, we'll get back to this at a later date. [00:32:29][43.1]

Nora: [00:32:29] Sir Nathan does come back at a later date. He comes back a month later and the bishop has an idea for him. [00:32:39][9.5]

Nathan: [00:32:40] And in the state of Utah, conversion therapy is not illegal. So, like, he doesn't have to be secret about it. It it's legal in 12 states. In the United States still. And so he's like, but there is this guy he's not a licensed therapist, but he knows the tools for it because he used it for himself. So if you'd like, you could maybe, like, connect with him and see if you want to do it. I was like, Okay. [00:33:03][22.8]

Nora: [00:33:05] Nathan calls the guy and ends up going to his house to just see what the whole conversion therapy thing is all about. [00:33:13][8.3]

Nathan: [00:33:14] He was like, really normal looking, actually. He, like, had a light tan. He had a blue short sleeved button up on with, like, dark wash denim jeans, I believe. Thing from American Eagle. He didn't have shoes on, though. He had like white socks on because he was in his house. And then he had like, light ish, like dirty blond curly hair with no facial hair. And it's just like, nice and crisp. He was like, really put together and he looked like a a normal guy. And then he's like, okay, so like with the conversion therapy, you know, we don't like, talk too much about it before we start because we want you to just like, go with an open mind and just accept it. And he's like, Would you be down for that without having a full description of what the therapy would be? And for me, Mr. Innocent and like Snow White over here. Like, I was like, Sure, why not? He's like, okay, would you like to start tomorrow night? I was like, Sure. So first session of conversion therapy. I went down to his basement. He tied me to a chair. The lights were off and he put on gay porn. And I got aroused and he shocked me because I was shock therapy. And so any time that, like, he could sense like he could see that I got aroused because I was naked. He would shock me. And that went on for about 2 hours. And that was my first session. [00:34:41][87.0]

Nora: [00:34:43] Nathan did this twice a week. Twice a week he would drive to this man's home, pay him money and go through this $100 session. [00:34:55][11.9]

Nathan: [00:34:55] We did that from February till April. [00:34:59][3.4]

Nora: [00:35:00] But the porn and the shocks weren't working, so the man said they needed to switch it up. [00:35:06][6.0]

Nathan: [00:35:07] And then we tried water torture therapy. The way he explained it to me is that he had to help suffocate out the gay and help me so I could focus more fully on the straight. So like he would hold my head underwater for long periods of time until almost blacking out. Once I did blackout and then that did not work. [00:35:28][20.5]

Nora: [00:35:29] There was just one more thing they could try. [00:35:32][2.5]

Nathan: [00:35:33] And then the last final one that he tried to do was that he brought over this woman. I didn't see her because I was blindfolded. But he had us make out and, like, have her, like, touch me to, like, help me, like, feel like, physically attracted to a woman and help me to, like, help me get straight, I guess. I don't know how else to say it. And that did nothing. And finally, I was I was like, okay, if this woman is touching me and she is making out with me. And nothing is happening like I give up. I was like, I'm done. I can't do this. [00:36:10][36.6]

Nora: [00:36:12] Faith is like basically everything in life and on the show. Complicated. Putting your faith in an organized religion is complicated. That same thing that can give you community and grace and support and love can also repress you and hurt you and shun you and shame you and confuse you. Everything that Nathan is doing here. Paying a man to torture him, which is what conversion therapy is, by the way. It's bull crap. And I mean the American Academy of Pediatrics and Adolescent Psychiatry, the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, basically every association agrees that conversion therapy is bull crap. But. He's doing all of this because it's the only way he can see a space for him in his family and in his faith, which is like saying it's the only way he can see a spot for himself in this life and in the afterlife. And he's doing it because he's kind of seen it work in a way. At least he's at least seen boys that he knew were gay, grow up and marry women and have a family. Something worked for them. Right. So why didn't it work for him? Again, to use the professional terminology, because it's bullcrap. But Nathan had been hoping that it wasn't Nathan. Like most people who are religious had always prayed. It's what he learned to do when he was little. But his prayers were different now. [00:37:52][100.1]

Nathan: [00:37:54] It isn't conversations. It's me screaming at him to take this away from me. Literally, I just, like, scream through the tears and I'm just like, Please, just. It always hurt. It's like in the Mormon Church. Usually they, like, teach you a way to pray as a kid. And so it starts with Dear Heavenly Father, and then it ends with the in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. So I always started it with, like, differently father. And then I just was like, I'm doing my best. I am trying everything I can. I'm going to the ends of the earth to make you happy. Just please answer this one prayer and take this away from me. And don't let me be gay anymore. Just please. And that was basically it. But screaming. And then I always ended it with In the name of Jesus Christ. [00:38:44][49.4]

Nora: [00:38:44] Stephen Nathan's family doesn't know about the conversion therapy. They don't know any of this. They think their Nathan is just fine. They don't know that he's run out of hope. They don't know that he's picked a day to die. August 25th, just after his 21st birthday. [00:39:05][21.3]

Nathan: [00:39:14] Then I woke up, got showered, got dressed, and went to work exactly how I was supposed to. [00:39:20][6.2]

Nora: [00:39:21] He works at a call center job for a nail rep company, so he spends his day talking with women, calling in to order their fingernail coverings. [00:39:30][8.8]

Nathan: [00:39:31] And said goodbye to my coworkers. Like I'll see him tomorrow. [00:39:34][2.6]

Nora: [00:39:35] Nathan went home and took a lot of pills. That was his plan. [00:39:39][4.2]

Nathan: [00:39:41] And then got myself to the bed and I just laid down in my bed and looked up because I couldn't do anything else. And I just looked around and waited for me to go. And then my eyes shut and the fireman came. [00:39:56][15.5]

Nora: [00:40:11] When Nathan woke up in the E.R., he was pissed. [00:40:14][3.1]

Nathan: [00:40:16] That's how I came out to my parents, actually. I woke up from being out from my attempt and my parents like, Why did you do it? Because I didn't leave any goodbye note. And they're like, Why did you do it? Why did you choose to go? And I was like, And I literally yelled at them. I'm like, I'm fucking gay. But I know you don't want a gay son and I know you want to deal with this. So just get the fuck out of my room because I don't want him to be alive anymore. So why am I here? Why are you here? Just get the fuck out. And then I just kept yelling to get the fuck out. And then they all finally got the fuck out. [00:40:51][34.7]

Nora: [00:40:52] Nathan's parents did get the fuck out of his room, and Nathan was transferred to the psych ward. He was angry. He was alive. He was angry that he was alive. And now suddenly he was an out gay Mormon man. [00:41:09][16.3]

Nathan: [00:41:10] And the whole time I was in the unit and everything, I chose to just not talk to God at all. I was just like, Nope, you know what? I'm going to keep to myself. You keep to you. We'll figure this out at a later time. Just not right now. So I didn't pray. I didn't read the Book of Mormon or the Bible. I didn't do anything religious. I just did. [00:41:34][24.2]

Nora: [00:41:34] Nathan Nathan's parents came in for therapy, and they started the long process of connecting and understanding each other. It was easier for Nathan's mom. Her brother is gay. She grew up in San Diego around a large gay community. But Nathan's dad took longer. Nathan and his dad would talk, but not about his sexuality for weeks. And Nathan is irritated. There's this big elephant in the room and he wants to call it out and he gets the chance. One day during one of his therapy sessions with his dad, when the therapist calls Nathan out. [00:42:16][41.8]

Nathan: [00:42:17] And she's just like. Nathan, why are your arms folded while your legs cross? Why are you blocking all of us out right now? But I was like, Oh, you know, I'm just, like, irked right now. And she's like, Why are you hurt? And I was like, Because I'm gay. My dad knows I'm gay now, and we're not talking about this. And then I just, like, do like a very, like, dramatic head turn to look at him. And he's just like that in there. Like doe eyed. Like what the. [00:42:45][27.6]

Nora: [00:42:48] He may have been sitting there like a doe eyed goofus, but Nathan's dad had still come to therapy to see his son. Because you know what? Nathan had assumed they didn't want a gay son, that it would be easier for his parents if he were dead. And Nathan's dad, even if he doesn't know what to say, is proving Nathan wrong. He's proving to Nathan that they do want him. They want their son. Nathan's dad wants him more than he wants the comfortable life he thought their family had before. [00:43:20][32.2]

Nathan: [00:43:22] Because he grew up in this really tiny town in Utah called Roosevelt, Utah, And it's an oil and cattle town. Either you own oil or you own a cattle ranch. And my dad's family did both. And he just grew up very conservative, didn't know really anything. I don't even to this day, he doesn't know what gay sex is. But the way you think about this with parents is that like when their child comes out as anything in the LGBTQ community, it's kind of like they have to go through a mourning of the child they once knew. Because, like, you're a parent now and like as a parent, like parents, in my opinion, like already have like a basic generic plan of what their kid's life is going to be like. [00:44:05][43.1]

Nora: [00:44:06] 100%. The only unconditional love in this world is the one you have for your parents. Your parents love for you is based on a lot of expectation that started before you were even born. Yeah. For context, this is not to say that I would love my kids less if they were gay. If anything, I'd love them more. I love them no matter what. This is just to say that I think all of us are aware of our parents expectations of us, and those expectations are all different. And it's not like our parents would necessarily love us less if we don't turn out the way that they expected us to, but maybe they'd love us differently. Or at the very least, they just need to learn a new way to love us if we aren't the same person they thought we'd be. That's Nathan's fear isn't unfounded or ridiculous. Even if you're a parent and are like, No, we all love all our kids. We do love our kids. But Nathan's parents were expecting him to be Mormon and to be straight. [00:45:02][56.6]

Nathan: [00:45:03] And lo and behold, I just, like, threw some glitter in their faces, like change of plan, bitch. I felt like we went through that. And now, like, we're getting better. Like, my dad asks me how a date goes or if I have a crush on someone and like. Good Lord, he would have never done that, like even six months ago. And look at him now. Like. And he's so. He's a great he's a wonderful man. And so is my mom. And they're wonderful because my dad's entire side shut me out and will not communicate with me because of the shame a suicide attempt brings upon the family and also the shame of a gay person in their family. And my dad just did it. Kerry's like, Fine, then I don't need to communicate with you. And so he just, like, left it behind because he cared for me. And they're slowly learning how to love this new version of Nathan. [00:45:59][55.8]

Nora: [00:46:00] Do you feel how big that is? Nathan Stoic, family oriented, small town father turning his back on the family who turned their back on his son. Because I want you to have absolute goose bumps and be sobbing right now because Nathan's father loves him, just how he is. But Nathan is also still learning to love this new version of himself. He tries to read from the Book of Mormon, but he doesn't go to church and he's trying to find a personal faith. Now he uses the darkest day of his life, August 25th, to try to bring more brightness to the lives of other people. Specifically, young people like him. Suicide is the second leading cause of death among people 10 to 24 and LGBTQ plus teens ideate or contemplate suicide at three times the rate of their hetero peers and LGBTQ Plus teens attempt suicide at five times the rate. And for LGBTQ teens who face family rejection, their likelihood to attempt is 8.4% higher. It's a crisis. Some are calling it an epidemic. When Nathan was laying there in bed, dying before the hot firefighters busted down the door. Okay. I'm just assuming they were hot. All right. Nathan had a moment, a moment of clarity. [00:47:26][85.9]

Nathan: [00:47:28] If I make it through this, then I will make sure that no one felt like I did my entire life. And if I do make it through, then I will figure out a way to make sure others know that they should live and that they need love. Because even though I don't feel that love, they need it. [00:47:47][19.7]

Nora: [00:47:50] But even with such an intense moment of clarity and a purpose like that, mental health is and always will be a constant struggle for Nathan. Keeping that love for others and for himself will always be a challenge. [00:48:06][16.3]

Nathan: [00:48:09] Suicide is an illness. You see someone with cancer and chemo and you do not question that they need the treatment of chemo. You believe them and you hear them. But if someone brings out that they are having suicidal thoughts or they are depressed, you're like, okay, here's like this, like a mantra book. Read these and maybe do some coloring and you'll just be fine. But it's an illness. They're sick and it's something that they have to fight to find joy for every day and to conquer. So don't judge someone that has had a suicide attempt or who struggles with depression because they're doing the best they can and they're doing the best that they can to just keep breathing every day. [00:48:57][48.5]

Nora: [00:49:04] Like, Do you feel like, Oh, I'll never be that way again? Or is this something that you'll always be aware of and kind of have your like antenna up for? [00:49:14][10.2]

Nathan: [00:49:15] I'll always have an antenna up. I there are still some days that I don't want to be alive, in all honesty. And there are still moments that I just I want to be dead because I feel like my presence in this universe isn't needed and that the world will still be bright if I'm not here. Maybe brighter. And it's a fight that I have to. I have to truly decide each day to keep doing. Because if I don't, I could consume me quickly. [00:49:51][35.9]

Nora: [00:49:58] We try to be really careful on the show not to try and tie everything up too neatly because life is not like that. Mental health is not like that. So here's what it means for Nathan to have his antenna up, for him to make sure that he isn't consumed again. A few weeks ago we asked everyone or anyone who was following me on Instagram to record a voice memo to tell us how they were. And Nathan sent us a message. And that Nathan in that message was not the Nathan that we met when we did the interview. It isn't the Nathan that you just heard, but we kept that recording so that when you hear it right after this bubbly, inspiring Nathan, you're reminded that even people who appear to be on the other side of something difficult, they still carry that with them. Nathan still carries that depression and anxiety and his suicide attempt with him. And even though he's an inspirational speaker and he has a gorgeous Instagram at Nate underscore when. He still has days like this. [00:51:06][67.7]

Nathan: [00:51:09] So. How am I? In all honesty. I'm not good. I'm hurt. I'm depressed. I am suicidal. I guess to round out what I am is broken. This past week I had a woman pass away from suicide that I met last year that helped me with helping college kids like myself who are gay feel more comfortable. Then she passed away from suicide and left her wife behind. And so many people who love her. One of my best friends and tried to commit suicide last Saturday. And my heart is heavy. I struggle and it sucks that I feel I must always be strong. So yeah, I guess that's my answer right now. Broken. [00:52:38][88.4]

Nora: [00:52:59] I'm Nora mcinerney, and this has been terrible. Thanks for asking. You can find our show at TFA dot org. We are a production of Feelings and CO an independent podcast production company. Our team is myself, Marcel Malarkey, Woo, Jordan Turgeon, Megan Palmer and Claire McInerney. Our theme music is by Jeffrey Lamar Wilson. You can always get in touch with us by calling 6125684441 or emailing us. Terrible at Feelings and Don Cole. We are working on new episodes right now, and if you have an episode idea for us, reach out, send us an email, call us or go to TFA dot org and submit your story idea. [00:52:59][0.0]