Ripped From The Headlines
Jamie Hahn was 29 years old when she was murdered by Jonathan Broyhill — the guy who had been the best man in her wedding to her husband, Nation.
The intrigue surrounding Jamie's death and her killer's subsequent murder trial created non-stop news fodder ... and the story quickly became about Broyhill — his lies, his deception, his crimes.
Nation wanted to tell his and Jamie's story without putting her murderer at the center of it. And in this episode, he does exactly that.
Transcripts may not appear in their final version and are subject to change.
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Speaker 1: [00:00:02] A quick warning that this episode contains descriptions of violence. Plus, some strong language. We're going to turn now to this bizarre crime story and a shocking death of a political strategist in North Carolina. A prominent family caught up in a murder mystery and police are now scrambling for a motive. ABC's Rob Nelson here with the latest on a very grisly case here, grisly and heartbreaking. Good morning, guys. It is a crime that has shocked residents in Raleigh, North Carolina. [00:00:32][30.0]
Nora McInerny: [00:00:34] Good morning, guys. It's terrible. Thanks for asking. And I am your host, Norah McInerney, who most certainly practices her newscaster voice in her private time. Most of us. Never. Okay, I'm done. Look, most of us never expect that our lives are going to be headline news. And we almost certainly never expect that our deaths will be headline news, because most death headlines are not like a happy person dies at the exact right age after no illness or discomfort, asleep and with all their affairs in order and inexplicably surrounded by all of their loved ones who were instantly able to accept the death and move forward happily in their own lives, honoring the person they lost but not dwelling too much on it. More State. If your death makes the headlines, the headline is more than likely going to be grisly and or heartbreaking. And Jamie's death was very grisly and really, really heartbreaking. [00:01:37][63.8]
Speaker 3: [00:01:39] WRAL has uncovered new details tonight in a story that has touched many people in the city of Raleigh. Thank you for joining us. I'm Deborah Morgan. [00:01:46][7.0]
[00:01:46] And I'm David Crabtree. Friends, family, colleagues, even people she did not know are mourning the loss of Jaime Hahn, the young political strategist who died after she and her husband were stabbed Monday night while in their home. Now charged with the crime, one of her closest friends and colleagues. [00:02:01][14.9]
Speaker 4: [00:02:02] David, I cannot tell you how many times the word tragic was used in conjunction with this case today. Now, it's a word that we in television news use a lot, probably too often, but this time it really fits. [00:02:14][12.2]
Nora McInerny: [00:02:17] Look, Jamie was 29 when she was murdered by Jonathan Broyhill, and Jonathan had been the best man in her wedding to her husband nation. So just right there. That's got to pique your interest. I mean, one murdered, too, by your husband's best friend slash best man three at age 29. [00:02:34][17.5]
David: [00:02:35] This morning, police say 31 year old Jonathan Roy Hill went from best man to killer of the bride. [00:02:41][6.1]
Nora McInerny: [00:02:42] We're curious people by nature, all of us. I mean, you listen to podcasts, I look at my own bookers. Everyone does. You blow your nose. What do you do? You take a look. So we're curious people. And we're also people who consume death and tragedy as a form of entertainment. Guilty as charged for being a person who watched a lot of law and order in her life. Like a lot. And even though it's fiction, executive producer Dick Wolf who makes no bones about the fact that he rips these stories from the headlines, they're always loosely based on a true story. True Crime is the hottest podcast category right now. I mean, it's really beaten, sad, which is our category. It's just blowing the sad cast out of the water. Now, this is not to discount the sadness of anybody's death, but the category is especially hot when the murdered person is a white woman in her twenties. [00:03:48][65.3]
Speaker 4: [00:03:48] Jamie Horn was a firecracker. A young, energetic, ambitious woman who, along with her husband, was immersed in local politics and community causes. And now, inexplicably, one of her best friends is being held responsible for her murder. [00:04:03][14.8]
Nora McInerny: [00:04:05] And when we're consuming these death and tragedy things, which again, yeah, I do it. I do. It's really easy to forget that we're talking about someone's life and that the loss of a life, particularly when that loss is a violent loss. It echoes and echoes. It's felt by so many people, people who never expected to be a part of a headline news story, people who just thought they'd live their lives and do their best and maybe one day have to die of cancer or something like the rest of us. People who thought they'd at least get a somewhat decent goodbye to their loved one. People like Nation. Nation john is Jamie's husband and which we'll get into later. Her former intern. On April 22nd, 2013, Nation came home from work planning to go for a run. He and Jamie's friend John had come over to do some work with Jamie. [00:05:12][66.9]
Nation: [00:05:12] It was just like a normal Monday, like I'd come home from work a little early. But other than that, it was like 5 p.m. and everyone's driving home and glad to be home and, you know, finding their kids to get their homework done before dinner. And it was just normal and a normal neighborhood. And all of a sudden hell happens. [00:05:35][22.3]
Nora McInerny: [00:05:36] Nation was upstairs, but he could hear Jamie downstairs screaming. [00:05:41][5.1]
Nation: [00:05:43] I just assumed that like a snake had been brought in the house. She was deathly afraid of snakes or that something had gone wrong, but nothing like what happened, you know? [00:05:54][11.2]
Nora McInerny: [00:05:54] And it wasn't a snake. And it wasn't a big bug either. Nation ran down the stairs and he saw John with a knife and he saw Jamie who had been stabbed. John came towards nation with the knife and the two of them fought and nation and Jamie ran out of the house and. [00:06:13][18.8]
Nation: [00:06:19] Just ended up in a neighbor's yard. And, you know, I think the thing I remember most clearly about those moments after and was just everyone helping. Like, I didn't remember any hesitation on the parts of anyone, Right. I mean, confusion. Yes. And like shocked that this attack had unfolded in a quiet neighborhood. But everyone was just there. You know, there was a lady who was biking by and there were our neighbors and there were people across the street, Ambassador House and others who just came. And one of the people was a nurse. And, you know, after he had attacked us both, I was so I remember just being overwhelmingly fearful that he was going to keep coming. And, you know, there was a neighbor who said, well, you know, I'm here to stop him. [00:07:12][53.3]
Nora McInerny: [00:07:14] Jamie was bleeding from her stab wounds really badly, and she and nation lay in the yard while the neighbors called 911. [00:07:20][6.5]
Nation: [00:07:22] When the person you love most in the world is in pain, like my own pain for my injuries went out the window, but also, like all of the other things went away. I was just simply begging her to stay alive, like promising her we were going to go back to the beach and that we would celebrate many more anniversaries together. And just saying, I love you. I mean, over and over and over again. [00:07:46][23.5]
Nora McInerny: [00:07:48] Nation had also been cut in his hand when he was wrestling with John. When the EMT got there, they put Nation and Jimmy into separate ambulances to take them to the hospital. [00:07:57][9.5]
Nation: [00:07:59] And this panicked call came over the walkie talkie and I looked at the lady and said, Is that my wife that they're talking about? And as she said, no. But then I saw her return. The walkie talkie offered us. Just thought to myself, Fuck, like this isn't good. Like. I mean, I knew she was hurt and I knew I was hurt and I. But I had no idea how badly. And, you know, and. I mean, it's such a cliche, but I mean, I think cliches are often cliches because they're true. They happen. I like how quickly you can go from a normal Monday to your life being blown wide open. [00:08:35][36.5]
David: [00:08:36] And we begin with breaking news. A man and woman in the hospital after a stabbing in North Raleigh. Hello, I'm Gerald Owen. [00:08:41][4.6]
Speaker 3: [00:08:41] And I'm Jackie Hyland. The attack happened around 630 this evening. Orioles Kevin Holmes has been talking with officials and neighbors about the stabbings. He joins us live with what he's learned so far. Kevin. [00:08:50][9.2]
David: [00:08:52] Jackie, within the past few moments, the crime scene has scaled down significantly, but the investigation still ongoing, still very active is crime scene tape and officers still surround the home where it all happened. We do know two people were rushed to the hospital. As you mentioned at last check, they're both in critical condition. More on this story as it unfolds. Back to you. [00:09:12][19.7]
Nora McInerny: [00:09:15] In the hospital. Jamie is rushed to the O.R. Nation is treated for the cuts on his hand, and then he just waits. [00:09:25][10.2]
Nation: [00:09:29] Now he's basically on lockdown, right? I mean, I went to out to get medicine that first night for, like, a second. They wanted to do surgery. I think even that night I said no, because Jamie was in surgery and then she was sort of fighting for life. And I had no interest in being under in case something happened, either good or bad. And so I went there and then the next night, Tuesday night, I went to a prayer vigil. Like I left for just a minute because I wanted to go speak and see the people that were there. And Jamie's mom wanted to go. It was just the weirdest I mean, just living in this like hospital bubble, surrounded by the beeps and the machines that you don't know what they're doing. And the angels who are nurses and eventually, like dozens and dozens and maybe even hundreds of people were there to bear witness and to help. [00:10:30][60.8]
Nora McInerny: [00:10:49] I don't think that there's just one person for everyone. I mean, if that were true, like good luck to us. But of all the people on this planet, Jamie and Nation really, really were a good, good match. They were both mega nerds about politics. They're both passionate about public service and justice and equality. They met when Nation was 20 and Jamie was 22, and they were working on the John Edwards campaign. And it was like at first sight for Nation. [00:11:25][35.9]
Nation: [00:11:25] Yeah. So I walked around the corner that first day and saw her. She was facing her computer, was facing away from me. And I walked over and they introduced me and she stands up and she gives me a big ol handshake which morphed into a hug. And she had the best smile in the world and smiled with her whole face and smiled with one big dimple and to really bright eyes and just had the most loving spirit immediately. [00:11:53][27.4]
Nora McInerny: [00:11:54] Jamie was literally just doing her job, but Nation kept showing up to volunteer and eventually his crush was reciprocated. This smart, accomplished older woman liked him. [00:12:08][13.7]
Nation: [00:12:09] Eventually it happened. It happened that February. So this would have been February of oh eight, and it was a few days after Super Tuesday, you know, for the political nerds out there. And that's literally how I was able to piece together like the date like a year later where like what day wasn't when we first guess, right? Oh, it was three days after Super Tuesday. [00:12:26][17.3]
Nora McInerny: [00:12:27] Jamie liked Nation so much that she married him. [00:12:30][2.4]
Nation: [00:12:30] She started a business. I started a new job. We moved across state lines and we got married in about six weeks time. So I was a little crazy. [00:12:36][6.1]
Nora McInerny: [00:12:37] Nation and Jamie found in each other a person who would encourage and challenge them, like a real partner who cared about the same things they did and actually lived those values. [00:12:47][10.0]
Nation: [00:12:48] We expected and believed that we would both be involved in public service in some capacity. That was always super important to us both. And so we sort of thought that we would move back and forth, I think between politics and nonprofits and state government and maybe even federal government. And, you know, she wanted to continue on her consulting firm. And so, like all of the work stuff felt important because it wasn't just work, right? It was our passion and it was our hobby and it was our interest because, again, like we're like the nerdy folks who sit there and watch political, you know, documentaries and love the West Wing like love, love, love. The West Wing, obsessed with the Golden Girls, loved to take out and $3 bottles of wine from Whole Foods and knew beyond a shadow of a doubt we would always have a ton of animals in the house. Puppies and kittens were her favorite thing next to like old dogs and old cats that no one else loved. And we talked about kids. I mean, I think that kids were important to her and as a result became important to me. I can't tell you how many times where, like, we had serious, substantive conversations about whether we should try to adopt various extended family members, children, You know, we're going to continue to adopt dogs and our house better be overflowing with pets and people and all of our friends and all of our neighbors. And that was always incredibly important to us. But like grand ambition on a small scale, be as good a friend, as good a family member, as good a partner as possible, and be there, show up, do the thing right, like go to paint ball or go to painting class or go to the funeral. Just the act of showing up was like her grand ambition. And I would say that that was like the passion that sort of tied all of this together. [00:14:41][112.4]
Nora McInerny: [00:14:46] Jamie and Nation did have that open door kind of home. They wanted to have their house in Raleigh, North Carolina was the place where all sorts of people would come to hang out, to have dinner to pet Jamie and nation's dogs. They had a big enough house that there was room for friends to stay when they needed to. And Jonathan Broyhill was one of those friends. He and Nation had met in high school, but eventually John had become as much Jamie's friend as he was nation's. He even lived with them when he first moved to Raleigh. Eventually he moved out and got a roommate. But Jamie's business was growing and she needed help. She did political consulting and she ended up hiring John. But she told him, Look, this is not like a pity hire. This is not me hiring you. Just because we're friends, you're going to have to work. And he did. [00:15:38][51.9]
Nation: [00:15:39] And then he started complaining about headaches and, like, feeling fatigued. And he went to the doctor and came back and told us that he had been diagnosed with M.S. and that they were optimistic because he was young, but that it was definitely like a big, serious subset of diagnosis. [00:16:05][25.4]
Nora McInerny: [00:16:07] M.S is multiple sclerosis. It's an often debilitating and very unpredictable disease. So immediately Nation and Jamie stepped up to close the distance in their friendship with Jonathan. There's not really anything you can do to cure Ms.. But Jamie did what she knew how to do. She did something. [00:16:30][22.9]
Nation: [00:16:31] You know, let's look into the best doctors in the area. Let's look into diet. I mean, like Jamie automatically, like Monday nights, like standing rule was unless work intervened or we were out of town. Jamie was going to cook dinner. She was going to invite him over, sometimes others, but always him. And they were going to watch like The Bachelor or The Bachelorette or Dancing with Stars. And I was going to not but I was going to be there like I was going to be present, but I wasn't going to watch those shows. That was always like on my computer or like doing some writing, but like we were all going to be together. And so she changed the way she cooked. I mean, it was like vegetables and focus on health. You know, he was overweight and it was encouraging him to go on walks. And so we added walks to the Monday plan, right. And go to the pool and move. [00:17:25][53.7]
Nora McInerny: [00:17:26] And then about a year after he was diagnosed with our mess, Jonathan had more bad news. [00:17:31][5.6]
Nation: [00:17:33] I remember I was on the phone with a work call and was standing there in the kitchen and I c saw him pull up and he walked and he looked like he had seen a ghost. And I hung up on told the person to go. And I looked at him and said, Well, what's going on? And he just collapsed against me, crying and told me he had pancreatic cancer. And so I led him to the living room and I sat there and listened to him share this news of this diagnosis, or at least likely diagnosis. [00:18:04][30.9]
Nora McInerny: [00:18:05] That's a really, really bad cancer with a really bad survival rate. I think it's like none. It's bad. And even though they weren't medical experts, the nation knew enough to know that their friend had gotten really, really, really bad news. [00:18:22][17.3]
Nation: [00:18:24] And I just texted Jamie and told her to get home right away. And so she came home and, you know, we I remember we cooked and and we literally just sat up till midnight and, you know, finally, you know, Jamie and I went to bed and she like, she was just so frickin strong and not didn't show anything. And I walked into the bedroom and she was just sobbing. And it was the first time I mean, I cried when he first told me that it was the first time I really let myself lose to. And she was just heartbroken. And I remember distinctly one of those first nights like her leaning over, rolling over and looking at me like. She had to wear glasses often and she had her glasses on and she pulled them off and she had tears in her eyes and she said, Don't you want to have a baby? And I was like, What do you mean? Like our best friend has pancreatic cancer. Like, you're trying to figure business out. This is going to be a hellacious few months. And she was like, nation. You don't realize like, it's like, doesn't it? Hasn't it sunk in? Like life is fleeting and we only have so much time. And I want the people we love to experience our children. And that was the first time she ever directly, like, looked me in the eyes and said, Let's do this. [00:19:47][83.8]
Nora McInerny: [00:19:53] John's pancreatic cancer took a lot out of him. Jamie and Nation didn't drive John to his doctor's appointments, but they were still close friends. John still worked for Jamie, and Jamie gave him flexible hours while he did all of his doctor's visits and treatments. Their friend had another very serious disease that they couldn't do anything about except just do their best to be the best friends that they could be. Inside the hospital nation has no idea that the most traumatic night of their lives is turning into a big, big, big story, a story that he has to participate in without even realizing it. [00:20:55][62.3]
Nation: [00:20:56] And what I didn't realize was how much stuff was going on outside. Right. Like, journalists were descending and and paparazzi and, like, we're just. We were just normal people, you know? And I had no idea any of that was happening. And then I remember we had to, like, draft a statement for the press. And like, Jamie was like, under an assumed name, like a pseudonym or whatever. And her room and the prayer vigil, there were cameras there. Like, I didn't really have my phone much, and it was like television stations and The Guardian and The Daily Mail and, you know, National Enquirer and like, everyone descending outside. [00:21:39][43.7]
Nora McInerny: [00:21:45] Jamie died on April 24th after two days in the hospital. [00:21:49][4.3]
Nation: [00:21:52] I remember the morning after she died like it was. We were riding to the church, discussed a funeral, and I couldn't bring myself to talk to my parents or to others. Like, I didn't feel like anyone understood. And being me and being social media focused, like I pulled out Twitter and I just sent out a couple of tweets about how I couldn't believe the world was spinning and the sun was shining and people were going about their lives. And multiple media outlets like embedded. Those tweets and. [00:22:22][29.9]
Speaker 4: [00:22:22] Articles nationwide tweeted these heartfelt sentiments after his wife's death. I lost my best friend last night. The sadness is overwhelming. I have no idea what I'm going to do without Jamie Huynh. She was my center, my rock and my soulmate. [00:22:37][15.5]
Nation: [00:22:39] And they were like, Well, you should make your account private and you shouldn't tweet for right now. Because they're just using that for comments in the press. And that was. Like that. Those were all moments that were just like, What the hell? Like, no one trains you to grieve and no one trains you to lose. But certainly, like, no one's like, here's media training in the case of your the person you loved most funeral. [00:23:01][22.6]
Nora McInerny: [00:23:04] All that attention meant that a thousand people came to Jamie's funeral. [00:23:08][4.6]
Nation: [00:23:10] They came because she made them feel like they mattered and because she, like, saw them. Right. Like, I mean, I think that's one of the most challenging things. Most challenging things in the world is like folks just not being seen. And I think even I can think of that often, right? Like I think Biden wrote in his book recently that something like 3 million Americans die every year. And like, how many of those people like as much as the fishbowl effect was terrible, how many of those people like their loved ones die? And a handful of people show up at the funeral and they're left picking up the pieces of a life that was shattered and they don't. And no one's even seeing them. [00:23:52][41.1]
Nora McInerny: [00:23:53] Jamie and Nation were being seen. And there's a fine line between being seen and being gawked at. [00:24:02][8.6]
Nation: [00:24:03] I remember Jamie's mom coming up to me not long after the funeral being, like. Like, literally when I say not long, I mean, like, an hour after being, like. So Good Morning America was outside the church, and they asked me if they could come film me in my living room tomorrow. It's like, really? Like you just buried your daughter. I just buried my wife and they want to film us in your living room. [00:24:29][26.2]
Nora McInerny: [00:24:30] That is a very specific, unusual example. But being gawked at is a very normal thing that happens when you're grieving. Americans are not the best at death and grief. And we all, all of us, me included, we struggle with what to say when somebody is deep in grief. [00:24:48][18.1]
Nation: [00:24:49] Yeah, I mean, that was it was was very odd. I remember being at a restaurant not too long after she died and someone walked up to me and they said, Oh, I'm surprised to see you on about so soon. Like it wasn't even really a person that knew me really like it was. And on the other hand, there were some really wonderful things. I mean, people would come up and tell you how sorry they were and like, you know, that you didn't know which could, in its own own way, be lovely. But then there would be days where, like, you were just trying to have a day. I mean, it was like a beautiful Sunday, and you're just trying to breathe and someone who you don't know comes up and says, like, I'm so sorry for your loss and you thank them. And then they linger and they're like, Well, I just can't believe that someone that you trusted would do that. And it's like, Well, yeah, me neither. [00:25:36][47.1]
Nora McInerny: [00:26:19] And we are back. This is what is really unique about nation situation. You take the grief of early widowhood, now you add a healthy scoop of trauma, you mix in some headlines, you layer in some guilt and confusion over the fact that you knew the murderer and now you let it sit, let it stew for just under two years, because it took just under two years for Jonathan Broyhill to go on trial for Jimmy's murder. [00:26:56][37.4]
Nation: [00:26:58] Yeah, I had a much weirder role in it. Right. Because not only was I her husband, I was the primary witness and I was also a victim and I was a survivor. And I checked so many boxes. So he was charged with first degree murder against her, but also attempted first degree murder against me. So I was a victim. You know, I was the person in the house other than himself is the witness and I was the spouse. And so I just I had a very different role than many people have. And I also had to give hours upon hours upon hours of testimony. And relive so many things that were lovely and near and dear, and then also so many things that were terrible. [00:27:43][44.7]
Nora McInerny: [00:27:46] So many terrible things. And at the trial, Nation has to relive all of those terrible things over and over and over and over. [00:27:56][10.1]
David: [00:27:57] Further evidence for the state of the state we called nation on. [00:28:00][3.1]
Nora McInerny: [00:28:02] Nation has to see John. He has to hear about Jamie's death again and again and again and again. He has to talk about it. He has to try to put into words what Jamie's death has done to him and to his world. [00:28:14][12.5]
Nation: [00:28:16] I was I was halfway down the stairs and I was yelling, what is Iran or what's happening? Or I was halfway down the stairs and she screamed out, He's trying to kill me. I proceeded down the stairs. You know. And that's why I rounded the corner and. My eyes immediately went. There was there was blood on the floor and I could see Jamie's legs. And lower torso poking out from there. Has immediately went to that. And then I looked up and he John was standing over her with a knife. [00:29:12][56.2]
Nora McInerny: [00:29:15] I mean, the nation has to relive every detail like the little tiny, teeny itsy bitsy, really small. Someone by me at the source. Very small. Details over and over and over and over. [00:29:31][16.5]
David: [00:29:33] But would you be able to on either of these pictures indicate where the Senate came at you with the knife in your character's protest? [00:29:42][9.1]
Nation: [00:29:43] When I turn past the cedar chest when we ended up hitting. Yes, sir. Okay. [00:29:48][5.0]
David: [00:29:49] Can you see if we can put states exhibit 40 up of this? [00:29:53][4.4]
Nora McInerny: [00:30:03] Not all of those details like whether a nation turned left or right at the cedar chest make for compelling television. But every night we could all turn on the news and hear the updates. [00:30:16][12.6]
Speaker 3: [00:30:20] At the Wake County courthouse. A widower staring down his wife's accused killer and his one time close friend from the witness stand. Nation had spent hours testifying about the vicious knife attack that would eventually take the life of his wife, Janie. [00:30:32][12.6]
David: [00:30:34] Let's begin with that chilling and graphic testimony at the Jonathan Broyhill murder trial in Raleigh. One of the first police officers on the scene testified it was one of the worst crime scenes he has come across in his ten years on the job. [00:30:46][12.3]
Speaker 4: [00:30:47] One of the most powerful moments today when Jamie Hines recorded voice is played in the courtroom. It's very difficult for her family, including her husband, Nation, who breaks down and is comforted by other family members. [00:31:01][13.6]
David: [00:31:02] Steve, the bottom line here is the defense is trying to keep Jonathan Broyhill from spending the rest of his life in prison without parole. The mandatory sentence for first degree murder t verdict in the Jonathan Broyhill murder trial. That verdict came in just before 5:00. Less than 2 hours of deliberations. [00:31:19][17.0]
Speaker 3: [00:31:20] But not soon enough for the family of victim Jamie Hahn with a jury found the defendant. [00:31:25][5.6]
Nora McInerny: [00:31:26] Guilty of first degree murder. [00:31:27][1.1]
Speaker 3: [00:31:28] Jarrod Bowen three Adam Owens was in the courtroom as the verdict was being ready. Joins us now from the newsroom. [00:31:33][5.1]
David: [00:31:34] Adam, Jackie, Gerald, as you heard there, as those guilty verdicts were called out, you could actually hear the release of all that time waiting for justice. [00:31:43][9.4]
Nora McInerny: [00:31:45] Now trust. I believe in a free press. I believe in transparency of judicial systems, documenting and making open these sorts of things are incredibly important to democracy and a fair rule of law. And I am pro those things. It cannot be underestimated. We by we, I mean just me. Hans has never done this. We use these sorts of records all the time to fact check our stories. Just getting content to go to the courthouse together. We walk in feeling confident. Cool. I have never had to ask for directions, but there's a big question how much of this is being consumed by the public us as justice, and how much of this is entertainment? [00:32:26][40.5]
Nation: [00:32:29] I mean, I think one of the most absurd moments was after the trial concluded when I got a Facebook message from a producer for the Dr. Phil Show who asked me to come on Dr. Phil and I can hear exactly how they worded it, but they were basically like, look, Dr. Phil is not just a television personality. He is someone who can help you through your grief. [00:32:51][22.2]
Nora McInerny: [00:32:54] And like more than my actual doctor. [00:32:56][1.5]
David: [00:32:57] Like. [00:32:57][0.0]
Nation: [00:32:58] Like all due respect to someone who was doing their job and like, you know, Dr. Phil is entertaining people for a long time. That is that is fine. But like, the idea that Dr. Phil and I, we're going to somehow have this magical 40 minute moment that would lead to me being healed in front of, you know, 5 million viewers was like, ridiculous, you know? And it was just it was like, oh, okay, sure. I've avoided media for all this time. Let me come on. Dr. Phil Yeah, that's what's going to make me better. [00:33:27][29.3]
Nora McInerny: [00:33:29] No shade to Dr. Phil here. He's helped millions of people, myself included. But nation didn't need more media attention. People couldn't get enough of the story of Jamie and Nation and John. [00:33:40][11.0]
Speaker 4: [00:33:42] They've been best friends forever. John Roy Hill was even best man when his good buddy got married. The three of them, by all accounts, were best friends. They hung out together. They traveled together. They were such good friends that a lot of people actually thought they lived together. [00:33:57][14.3]
Nation: [00:33:59] You know, there were some of the profiles. John and I were such great friends. And here's the story. You know, and they and like some other was not inaccurate. I mean, at its core. But then other times it was like, you know, nation and John did everything together. And it's like, well, there were times, like most many friends where we would do a lot together, but then there were times we wouldn't talk very much for like a couple of years or, you know, I think people missed how much of a best friend he was to Jamie or, you know, they obviously didn't have a chance to ask Jamie why she hired him in the first place or you know what I mean? Like, it's like anything like they're painting by numbers on these sort of sensationalized stories. [00:34:38][39.2]
Nora McInerny: [00:34:44] I, I get why people are fascinated with killers, because how how do you become this kind of person? Was it always inside of you? Is it something your parents did? Is this a nature thing or a nurture thing? And our favorite thing to wonder and sometimes ask where there's signs that everyone around you miss. Did you actually walk around, like with a literal sign that said, Look out, I'm going to kill someone someday? The trial and the coverage around it wasn't just nation coming to terms with how Jamie died and with who killed her, but also coming to terms with a lot of bizarre truths about the person who did it. Jonathan wasn't just headline news because he was nation's best man turned killer of the bride. He was headline news because Jonathan wasn't who he said he was. [00:35:45][61.0]
Nation: [00:35:46] I don't remember who told me, but someone just pulled me aside and they said none of this was true. [00:35:49][3.8]
Nora McInerny: [00:35:51] None of it was true. As in the mass, the pancreatic cancer. Jonathan had made all of that up. [00:36:00][8.9]
Nation: [00:36:02] One of the things that made the trial so difficult was like finding out the whole story, right? Like the depth of the lies and deception and the plans to get out of town and all of those things. [00:36:13][11.5]
Nora McInerny: [00:36:15] Jonathan had been embezzling money from one of the campaigns that he and Jamie worked on, and Jamie had been starting to realize that something was amiss. But. Didn't know that Jonathan had at the same time been trying to raise money from other people to support his fake treatments and that Jonathan was maybe also planning on disappearing. And all of this is really interesting, right? I mean, I would be curious. I am curious when we hear stuff like this, our natural reaction is lean in. Tell me more. I cannot believe it. We start to see everyone involved as the cast of some weird drama. We start to have opinions about who we like, who was right, who was wrong. Lots of opinions. And one of the things about this world that we live in that we completely forget is that talking or typing out our opinions is optional. Like at any point we could not do it like is wild news. But in this world we live in, we can form that opinion and then we can find that person in Fine nation. We can look him up on the Internet, dash off a quick tweet like we're talking about an old episode of Law and Order. We watched part of on the treadmill at the gym just, hey stranger, here's my casual opinion on the worst three years of your life. And a lot of people did that to nation. [00:37:47][91.7]
Nation: [00:37:48] There would be people who would tweet at me that would be like, well, you know, like, this was the Democrat a Democratic Party conspiracy? Or because she was a Democrat or like, if you had a gun in the house, she would still be here, like raising comments. And everyone wanted this to be like some bigger betrayal or scandal. And that was like, that was really fun. When you're mourning your wife, too, to read the comments on local news stations where people are like, Well, my God, it must have been there must have been something up. Who knows? Can't wait to see what comes out. It's like you do realize this is my life, right? [00:38:28][40.3]
Nora McInerny: [00:38:29] Honestly. No, no, I no, I don't think most people realize truly in their bones and their souls and their hearts that this is nation's life. Because they see it on the same TV as law and order in the same chair is when they watch SVU. And so they expect things from it, like they do from CSI or Cold Case Files or any of the billion other shows that are about murder and mystery and death and that have like a pretty clear plotline. The fact and the fiction can become indistinguishable for us sometimes a lot of times. We don't know Jamie Nation or John, but we can kind of see where we expect the story to go. And so we are waiting for the story. We expect a good story. And in a good story, there is not a lot of room for the boring parts, but the boring parts are also the important parts, like who this person was and the absence that their death leaves behind these earth shattering things that nation feels that everybody who loved Jamie feels. They're a snooze to anyone else. For all the media that nation refuse to participate in. You should notice that he did choose to talk to me and to be on this podcast. And there's a reason for that. And it's because he wanted to tell his story and Jamie's story without putting John at the center of it. [00:40:09][99.6]
Nation: [00:40:09] I think the hardest part and the thing that I've thought about the most over the last five plus years is that, you know, it becomes about the way the person died and not the way they lived. Like, one of my worst days was like opening up the local papers website and seeing the autopsy on the like, the front page of it, like something that I didn't want to read at, that I didn't feel strong enough to read that just staring me in the eye. And I mean, it's weird, right? Like, our culture is really bad at talking about grief, but we're really obsessed with, like, the act of dying. I think and I think the same is true for, like, this whole true crime onslaught, because what we do is we reduce down people, right? Like, that's not no one's nuanced, like not even the bad person, quote unquote. There's like a little bit of a paint by numbers effect of like, okay, let's define the victim. She was pretty. She was kind and she did this day. And then let's move on to the fact that she was murdered by someone who loved her or proclaim to love her and certainly who she loved. And then, like, there's not just the person who's grieving and the widower who can't figure out life and who's endured this betrayal. And I think, like so much of our lives are determined by our narrative and like, being betrayed and like, going through grief, but particularly going through betrayal and going through violence, being a victim of violent crime and a survivor of violent crime and seeing your loved one die in violent crime like it shifts your whole narrative like you. It shakes your trust and it it makes you wary and worried. And it's not like that narrative also like was it was is too nuanced, right? Like for true crime procedurals and podcasts and documentaries, It's it's you know, I think like we love stories as a society, as people. We love good versus evil. And so all of these people's lives, my life, Jamie's life is turned into like the hero's journey I like good versus evil and betrayal and love and fairytale turn to horror story and like, all of those things can be true. [00:42:22][133.0]
Nora McInerny: [00:42:24] It can also be true that some of the attention that nation got from all this press. Some of it was really, really good people pouring their hearts out to him like really meaningful things like Nation had always loved the Kennedy family and Ted Kennedy Jr reached out to nation after he heard about Jimmy's death. [00:42:45][21.2]
Nation: [00:42:46] So the really good things that you get in the and and the sweet notes and the people who reached out and offered meals and those things made up for the really terrible things, I think like because they were just more prevalent. Right. Like people's goodness was way more on display than their, you know, bitterness and anger. And it made the like tweets that if I'd only had a gun, my wife would still be here a little more bearable. [00:43:12][25.7]
Nora McInerny: [00:43:24] John Broyhill is in prison because he was convicted of first degree murder and he will likely spend the rest of his life in prison. The headlines, at least for the past year, have pretty much stopped. And what was a big news story is now just nations life. A life. He has to figure out how to live without Jamie. [00:43:48][23.9]
Nation: [00:43:49] No one tells you how agonizingly lonely it is to go to bed without the person you love next to you for like, not just days, not just weeks, but for months. And to know that like that person, like who laid on their side and who, like, wanted to sleep on the left side of the bed and, you know, you just fit perfectly, like on the other side, wrapping your arms around them like that. Not just are you alone, but like you will never have that person again. A friend of mine and Jamie said that in the aftermath of her death, they broke down in tears one day and they told their partner and they said, you know, the thing that I'm most afraid of is that people will take the opposite lesson from Jamie's life. They'll lock their doors. They'll close themselves off to people. They will think that we can build walls and put up security systems. And like that, we shouldn't trust anyone. [00:44:41][51.5]
Nora McInerny: [00:44:42] Nations life is not just sadness and tears. It's. I mean, it's sadness and tears. And it's working on the social justice causes that he and Jamie were planning to spend their life on. It's a whole range of experiences and emotions that aren't exciting enough to be headline news. [00:45:07][24.7]
Nation: [00:45:09] You know, like maybe three months later you're on a boat with someone with a lovely person and their kids and you I mean, this happened. Ryan I see a bald eagle and it's babies and sun shining and it's just lovely. And I wouldn't have thought I would have ever experienced that again. But at the same time, like that night, I went home and I was really, really sad because I had experienced it without Jamie, right? Like now, like I didn't have the opportunity to grow old with the person I loved. You know, no one tells you that some of your best days will be some of your worst days. Like one of the nights that I seriously didn't know if I could go on was also at the conclusion of one of the happiest days I had after Jamie died. And the feeling was so overwhelming because I was so happy and it felt like a betrayal. [00:45:57][48.6]
Nora McInerny: [00:46:00] That feeling, that feeling of wondering if it's okay to feel happy when you're also so sad. That feeling and those baby goals. They're not exciting enough to be headline news. So it's a good thing. This is a podcast. Now, I don't want to compare myself to executive producer Dick Wolf, except that's all I've wanted to do my entire life. But how is what we do with this podcast any different than ripping it from the headlines or boiling down a big intense story into something that you were able to listen to on your daily commute or while you walk the dog or do dishes? I don't know, except that when our show ends, we know it's just our show that ends, never the story itself. The story. Every story just keeps going. And newscasts and podcasts and law and orders can only just tell a little bit, just a few moments in time. There will always be nuance that the headlines can't capture or that a podcast can't capture. There will always be more to a story than what you see or what you hear. This has been terrible. Thanks for asking. I'm Norah McInerney. Our senior producer is Hans Buteau. He biked to work today. Everybody, that's a champion right there. Our project manager is Hannah Mika across. She's doing some really great stuff for us and I appreciate her as a person and as a project manager and as a mom. Honestly, she's not my mom, but I get to watch her be a mom and I feel like it's making me a better mom. This podcast was made better by the insights of Tracy Mumford and Melanie Elsworth. Thank you to Nation for letting us tell your story. We appreciate you. Our theme music is by Joffrey Wilson, and we are a production of American Public Media APM. [00:46:00][0.0]
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