Witness

Religion often gives people a sense of belonging. It tells them who’s in and sometimes (depending on the faith, or depending on the microcosm of the faith they're raised in) who's out.

That's how Patricia grew up — in a faith where leaving your religion meant leaving behind everyone you love. She is a former Jehovah’s Witness who left the church when she was in her mid-20s.

This episode looks at what's worse: keeping the people you love at a distance, or showing them your true colors and losing them forever.

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Transcripts may not appear in their final version and are subject to change.

I am a person who loves rules. I really do. I love knowing what I’m supposed to do, or not do, so that I can do the right thing and hopefully get an A+ or a gold star. Rules give me comfort in a world of chaos. They do that for a lot of people.

Some people get their rules from religion. They are raised in a faith that tells them what is right and wrong, and what to do. Faith often gives people a sense of belonging. It tells people who’s in. And sometimes – depending on the faith, or the microcosm of the faith that people are raised in – who is out.

And faithful is how Patricia grew up. She was IN. 

Patricia: I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses. And... it's funny that I don't say... I... I was... a Jehovah's Witness because we were supposed to be... part of a whole group. We weren't supposed to be... really set apart as individuals. So we would always say I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

I know Jehovah’s Witnesses mainly through their most famous member: Prince, and through their magazine, The Watchtower, which I always accept when handed to me on a street corner because it’s hard for me to say no to people. And because they sometimes come to our door, and it is very hard for me not to just, invite them in.

I did not know much, obviously, so Patricia gives me a quick education on what she learned as a child.

Patricia: Jehovah is God. Jesus is God's son. They're not part of a trinity. We're the only religion that has the truth. So we are the only religion that has God's blessing. And our job is to preach... to everyone else on the earth. In order to... both save ourselves by preaching to them and also... to hopefully get some of them to not be destroyed. At Armageddon. So... you know if you happen to die before... Armageddon. then... your... collective deeds are written in a book. So to speak in God's memory. And if... if you did more good things are more things that made you worth being resurrected. Basically. If you didn't do anything unforgivable... like speak out against the religion... If you did what you're supposed to do then you got resurrected. 

The promise of Armageddon – the fiery end of the world as we know it – and what would set up the Eden that was coming next where true believers live. was ever-present for Patricia. She didn’t know when it was coming. Just that it WAS coming. 

Patricia: Armageddon is going to come any day now. 

And when it did, the good Witnesses would be saved. And everyone else...dies.

Patricia: And I should say this that the experience of growing up... with impending... like destruction of your all your neighbors and everybody on the planet except for your... religious group... It was really jarring. because you had to be nice to people on the street... and... you had to hold these two truths that like be polite to people on the street But also they're going to die. And when you're little... you do things like telling other kids at school... you're going to die at Armageddon. You know. Because that's what you think... You know "I just thought you should know you're going to be destroyed with your parents because you're.. not a Witness."

DISCLAIMER HERE: Patricia doesn’t speak for ALL witnesses. She speaks from her own experiences, in her own church. And Patricia liked her church. She liked her life. Even if it was kind of scary, you know, with the promise of demons and Armageddon. She was a Witness. She was special. And she had special standards that she had to uphold. Things she had to keep from doing.

Patricia: Disobeying my parents. Eating birthday cake. Oh yeah because Witnesses don't celebrate... birthdays. or celebrate Christmas. So when I was 11 it was very much like... do good things don't do bad things. Don't say bad words. Don't lie. Like I had a teacher who one time passed out Crackerjacks to everybody. This was in second grade I think. And... so we were all eating our Crackerjacks and they were really I mean you know... who doesn't love a box of Cracker Jacks? And then like halfway through the box... she was like... “so the reason why we're eating these is because it's my birthday.” And like instantly I had to stop eating the cracker jacks and... put them down and... then

Nora: How did that feel like you're holding like just contraband?

Patricia: That... that you were... eating poison. like instantly it was not OK to be eating those Crackerjacks. even if I didn't know. Now that I knew I had to spit them out. Put them away. 

And yeah, things like that kind of made her the weirdo in school. But again… it also kind of made her special.

Patricia: I got to be a little bit of a snot about it. But you know we were kind of taught that we were better... than everybody else for doing that. So... you know the only way to feel better when you really want the thing... is to make the person who gave you the thing feel bad... they forgot and gave you the thing.

Nora: Yeah.

Patricia: So you know how you develop coping skills for making it through the world being intensely different and... you know dressing up and going to people's doors that you might be going to school with. And you might like knock on their door on a Saturday with your parents with a Bible in your hand. 

The thing about rules is that there has to be a consequence when you break them, or there’s no point to having them. And the consequences for breaking the rules in Patricia’s world were…intense.

Patricia: Amanda was... my best friend and she lived... a very short walk away from me in the small town where we grew up. And so... I spent... tons of time with her. I stayed over at her house she would see over at my house.  and we we were about as close as kids could be. 

Patricia and Amanda were three years apart in age. When Amanda is 15, Patricia is 12. 

Patricia: I'm a very awkward... middle schooler and she's... less awkward as a high schooler. 

There’s a thing in their faith called Disfellowshipping. And Patricia is fearful of this… even as a child. Because it’s… not a joke.

Patricia: Which means... once you're disfellowshipped that you are... shunned...

This big, scary thing-- disfellowshipping? It happens to AMANDA. Patricia’s BEST FRIEND. And nobody tells Patricia what happened exactly… it’s just that Amanda, who is 15 at the time, has done...something. Probably with a boy? Patricia has her suspicions. And now...Amanda’s dead. Metaphorically.

Patricia: You have to... stop treating them like they are... a human being. Minimize eye contact. I mean if you have to-- like if you're in a business and they walk in. and need to buy something and you're forced to be the one who's helping them... then... you know… help them because it's your job but don't go out of your way to... treat them like a human. 

So… Amanda didn’t DIE. But she was dead to Patricia. And to all Witnesses. And to God.

Nora: Were you afraid for her? 

Patricia: Resigned for her more like. because we were taught... that... whatever the person... has done they deserve what they get. And they... if Armageddon comes and they didn't repent. you know they kind of deserve to die. Deep down I was afraid for her. And I wanted her to know to take the steps toward coming back. There were steps that you could take... to come back to to... get back in good standing as they called it.

As far as Patricia knows, Amanda did not take those steps. She never repented.

She and her family disappeared from the Faith. Patricia has no idea what happened to her after the disfellowshipping, or where she ended up. 

Patricia: I was so heartbroken. because... I felt abandoned by her. I felt angry at her for having done whatever she did. And I felt heartbroken that I lost her. But I had to quickly control those feelings. and... I got very good at controlling my... my feelings and kind of like holding them in. So I didn't... react when I saw her. I didn't start crying when I saw her on the street and couldn't say anything to her. You know I both had to watch out for if I ran into her. Make sure that I ignored her and didn't slip up and say hi. And also just remembered how... how important it was not to do... whatever it was that she did.

The stakes are HIGH in Patricia’s world. If you’re in, you get everlasting life. And if you’re out, you burn in hell. And before you burn in hell, you lose your family. And all your friends. All your support system. It’s gone. 

Many religions leave space for doubts. Encourage them, even. They believe that doubts are good, and make a stronger base for faith.

Patricia...didn’t have that luxury. Doubts are bad, and dangerous.

But they crept in anyway. 

Because outside of Church, Patricia was a part of the world. She went to public school. She was a high achiever - Advanced Placement courses and participation in the Future Business Leaders of America. She went to nationals for that. 

Patricia: But after that it was like oh no this is going too far you need to kind of... not be around so many... non-Witnesses. So I had to cut back on that. So you know there is like being a good student and having to kind of tamp that down because that...  is at odds with being a good Witness. And I knew that I couldn't go to... college. So... you know am I doing enough to get by and get good grades. or am I... am I trying to... achieve so much that I'll be... pressured into going to a college that I know I can't go to?

The focus on prayer, preaching and faith at the sacrifice of education and career is a major part of some Jehovah’s Witness congregations. In Patricia’s congregation, the main focus of a person’s life was their piousness, not what they did for a living.

Patricia: There were a lot of janitorial... business owners. waitresses... waiters. I guess servers would be... the term. I worked in retail. and... I was a server. and... I was basically it... anything that was low skill that you didn't have to go to school for... and that you could kind of devote most of your mental energy towards the preaching work... was kind of the... the goal for Jehovah's Witnesses.

So Patricia starts to focus more on her faith. She makes new friends who are more devout, and do a lot more door-to-door preaching. THAT becomes her extra-curricular, and her new friends keep her focused on her Faith, and not on her doubts. 

So... when those doubts do creep in, Patricia shoves them down, explains them away, prays them away. Because to not do so would be an unforgivable sin.

Patricia stays true to her faith for a long time. 

But in her mid-twenties… Patricia started to feel burned out. She was still an ardent believer… but the rigor of it was getting to her.

Patricia: I just was having a hard time... doing the day to day stuff. and I was dealing with some pretty severe... untreated anxiety and depression.

Patricia had started to skip meetings. She’s wasn’t going to service twice per week anymore. Then she stopped going altogether.

At this point,she had gotten a job at a government office. And one day… she gets sent on a trip a couple hours away – just a day trip, a drive – with a coworker. And the co-worker knows that Patricia is a Witness. And this co-worker wants to talk about it. Sort of.

Patricia: I was driving my co-worker... had their phone out and they were pulling up... YouTube videos about... atheism. And... that really made me uncomfortable... but I didn't want to be rude. So I was letting them kind of play some things and nothing was... sounding like it made any sense. But then they asked me... what I believe about... the blood policy? and that is a policy that Witnesses have that you... should not accept blood transfusions no matter what. They believe that that is... tantamount to ingesting it which the Bible forbids. So... I told this much to my co-worker and they said... “I could never... let my baby die. because I didn't give them... a blood transfusion. That would be child abuse.” And I just kind of stopped because you can't really say anything after that because that's... you know what am I going to say? “No, you should let your baby die.” You know? So... that was the first time that I didn't have any... defense for that or I didn't-- I did... I mean it was a crappy one that I gave as a Witness. But... for the first time I had to just kind of stop and say... “What am I saying? Am I tell-- am I really telling someone that they should let their baby die if they need a blood transfusion?” And... so it stopped me from having that script that I always ran in my head. And that was when the doubts kind of all started piling up. Because when you're going and going and everything's following you... you don't notice how much is following you until you stop and it all hits you from behind. And I started to think back on all these things that I had just... accepted. without ever thinking... what does this really mean? How does this make sense? You know in the back of my mind I was just thinking whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa what just happened. Like whoa. I don't believe it anymore. what...What? but I do believe it but I don't. And... it was terrifying. but it was exhilarating at the same time. because for the first time I was going there. It’s like 27, 28 years of just repressed doubts and... things I was ignoring. just all hit me at once.

We’ll be right back after the break, after we hit YOU with a word from our sponsors.

And… we’re back.

Patricia has just had a wrench thrown in the works of her faith by a co-worker and some YouTube videos. Which probably wasn’t her co-worker’s intention. Her co-worker probably wasn’t trying to instigate an existential crisis, but that’s where Patricia is… driving down the road on a work trip. 

Patricia: Give me a second I need to process 28 years of being a Witness all of a sudden and having that fall apart. Let me process this. Give me a second. So I think I don't think they realized what they did. And I don't mean like how dare they. I mean... I really don't think they realize... what... what they led me to. And I don't think I realized how close I was to... that point. I think I was always kind of teetering... and trying to be so busy that I didn't think about it.

When Patricia got in the car that morning… she had been one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, on her way to a work trip with a co-workers. A few hours later, as they arrive as their destination… who the heck is she?  

Patricia: I don't know. I'm not... I'm not what I was but I don't know what I... what I am. And... that was really scary. And... my whole identity and my whole social structure and my whole family... were wrapped around this thing that all of a sudden... I had opened the Pandora's box of what... else is out there. And... now I had to come to terms with the fact that... this wasn't true. And what should I do now.

For a lot of people, myself included… the next logical step for “what should I do now” is to call your friends and family and be like, THE CRAZIEST THING JUST HAPPENED I NEED TO PROCESS THIS WITH YOU!!! 

But… that’s not an option for Patricia. That’s speaking out against her family. Which is the same as speaking out against her Faith. And the risk of that is too high.

Even bringing up her doubts could result in her disfellowshipping, her losing her family and friends.

So she keeps it to herself. She goes back home, and attends a couple of meetings. But it isn’t the same.

Patricia: It was almost like I was looking at everybody... doing everything that I had been doing... for my whole life. You know singing these songs that were beautiful and emotional and... listening to these talks at meeting that... you know used to do it for me. They used to like give me chills because they were so powerful and motivating. And now it was just like... what language are you speaking? And... I felt like I was... an anthropologist watching... a culture that I've never seen before.

It’s a weird place to be… on the outside and on the inside at the same time. It’s everything you know… and are familiar with… but none of it feels right.

A few months after that conversation in the car… Patricia’s grandfather dies. And Patricia goes to his funeral.

Patricia: I missed having a firm feeling of what was going to happen. I missed that I missed having a strong family that we all... were united in what we believed. And nobody knew... I think they were starting to have suspicions that something was wrong but they didn't know. By design they didn't know I didn't want them to know. So I was... pretty much completely alone in kind of feeling this... conflict and this pain and this grief on top of it all.

Nora: Before you had these doubts. What did you think happened? Like if you hadn't had doubts you'd go to your grandfather's funeral and what would you believe was happening to him?

Patricia: It would still be sad. but I would believe... that... he will be... resurrected. After Armageddon. And... and I'll be able to see him again. 

Nora: So without that.... your Grandpa's funeral is what?

Patricia: It's just when you say goodbye forever.

Patricia decides the safest thing to do is to ghost. Fade away. She doesn’t need to announce her rejection of the Faith to her family. She’ll just…move away. Somewhere she won’t run into other Witnesses who know her family. Where she won’t run into other congregants who could see her out on a date, or sinning in other ways, and then report back to her family and force them to disown her.

Patricia moves five hours away. 

But she knows it isn’t easy back home. Her mother knows that Patricia not going to meetings.

Patricia: I told her it was because of anxiety because that wasn't a lie. It just wasn't the full truth. And I felt like that would be a little easier than having... the full conversation with her. This is not typical of witness parents but she was actually very... supportive of... whatever I needed to do for my mental health. And also very protective of me. So if anyone else asked what was going on. She kind of said like... “Patricia is an adult and she can do what she wants and I don't really have those kinds of conversations with her. So if you want to ask her yourself you're welcome to.” If anyone asked my mom.

At the same time Patricia is leaving behind the familiarity of her faith, and her family, she’s starting over. Reinventing herself at age 26. Having a sort of delayed adolescence. 

Patricia: I realized how much of my personality was actually... the religion and so I felt a little bit like I was... I was just kind of... an amoeba like floating around without a structure or a shell. that I just didn't know what I wanted to do and so I kind of did different things and hung out with different people. And… it's hard to be... to be discovering yourself. At a time when most people already have a pretty clear idea of their self. And to be realizing what you both do and don't want to be.

Five hours away from the watchful gaze of her congregation, Patricia starts to play catch-up. She starts dating. She has her first kiss! She gets her first boyfriend, and has her first break-up. She starts making friendships. Not based on the forced proximity of her faith, but friendships built on shared interests. Which means she needs to get some interests. One of her first friends is Jennifer. 

Patricia: She was very good at cultivating friendships. so she would have me over frequently and… like we started watching Game of Thrones together. It was... horrifying for me at the time.

Nora: I cannot think of a... like... she couldn't have started you out with like some light... you know Dawson's Creek or something? You went from a Jehovah…  to Game of Thrones

Patricia: [talking over each other] Right. pretty much. Yeah that's all she was. I think she was trying to look like exposure therapy or something. But it was weird because I would I would find myself just... forgetting to keep in touch with her. And she would contact me and ask me if I was mad. It's like no I'm fine. What's wrong you know.

Nora: Yeah.

Patricia: And and she'd be like “well I just haven't heard from you for two weeks so it's going on” you know. and I was like oh yeah I don't I don't see your face but I still need to… be a human with you.

Just as Patricia is starting all of this learning… as she was just getting settled into her new life… she went home to visit her parents for a few days. 

Patricia: And my dad was dealing with... a persistent cough and fever and just kind of feeling crummy. and he looked really pale. And he...... went to the doctor and was diagnosed with bronchitis. And... then he came home and took... an antibiotic pack and did not get better. 

Finally, Patricia’s mom convinced him to go to the E.R. They left. After a while… Patricia got a phone call from her mother. They forgot her Dad’s wallet, so they need Patricia to grab it and meet them in the ER. 

Patricia: And my mom was standing there... with tears in her eyes. And... she said he has a AML and her eyes were filling up with tears. And I... I looked at her... and I just knew it was bad. And then she said it's acute myeloid leukemia. 

Acute Myeloid Leukemia is… blood and bone marrow cancer.

Patricia: And it's hard to describe. You know it's scary enough when you hear AML or any kind of leukemia. But for Jehovah's Witnesses it's... it's pretty much like saying he's going to die. because... you can't get blood. You can't have a blood transfusion. and if it's far enough along. And if it's an acute if it's an aggressive cancer or if it's something like that. That's pretty much all you can do is get blood transfusions and have that be a big part of the treatment.

Her Dad is proud of his decision, even if it scares him. Because he does know what his decision means. 

Patricia: He was crying... in the hospital... in his... gown on the bed. He... he just looked very little under the gown. you know under that under the blanket in the gown and... I think he knew. I think he knew that this was it. And I think he even told my mom that. and... when she said goodbye to him she was going to drive up later. They said to each other. This is it. You know and I think that's what it meant was this is-- this is when he dies. 

The hospital he’s at can’t do anything for him, so he had to be transferred to a larger hospital that’s actually in Patricia’s new city. Patricia’s mother wanted her to ride along in the ambulance with her dad.

Just before they set out, Patricia overheard a phone conversation between two Witness elders who were coordinating the transfer. The two men were talking...

Patricia: And then I heard him respond. “Oh yeah. His daughter is going with him.” And... the next thing he said was “Oh I think she's still in good standing. She still... yeah yeah she's in good standing.” and I realize that what that person was asking this elder... was if I was still a good Witness. As though that would... somehow... if he said no if that would mean that I wouldn't be able to ride with my dad in the ambulance. And so that was the first clue to me that this was... this was going to be... like that there was going to be someone checking on... who was around my dad at all times. to make sure that my dad was never with someone who could potentially... jeopardize his spirituality by making him have a blood transfusion or by... causing him to have a blood transfusion.

Patricia eventually leaves… in the ambulance... with an EMT… and with her dad. 

Patricia: He was out of it. I think he talked about being hungry. I don't think he realized... how quickly things happened. And I think it was going to be like kind of a prolonged thing in his mind. I didn't realize how quickly things would happen either.

But no matter how quickly things were happening, her father was vocal about not getting any blood transfusions. He told everyone. Repeatedly. Even the woman who came in to change his trash.

And the oncologist respected his decision, but she outlined to him… and to his family… what it meant.

Patricia: Without a blood transfusion we're looking at... probably... a week maybe more. And... you know she did say there's a chance that you could have chemo but your blood count is so low... that we need to get it up to a certain point before you can even... have chemo. And then that could lead to a very... very traumatic last few days. or if you don't have chemo you could have a much more comfortable last few days.

Patricia’s dad does try chemo. For two days. But it makes him feel even more sick. So they stop.

Patricia: And that was really it. That was when we really knew. This was going to be... watching him die.

Nora: How does it feel to know that there's something that could be done... and that... he's just not going to do it?

Patricia: Horrible. {crying} it's like it's like watching someone drown and having the... life preserver. and...knowing that they will-- they will think that you attacking them if you throw it to them. So... I made the decision not to say anything to him. or not to try to persuade him. because I felt like... if... if he hears that from me right now what he's going to think is that I am being used by Satan... to try to... tempt him or to sway him. when he's at his weakest and I didn't want him to... have that as the last few... days of memory of me. 

His survival is within reach – but he won’t take it. Because it would cost him eternal life.

Nine days pass...

Patricia: I remember he was pale. He looked almost see through. and... all of the... Aunts and uncles all of my dad's siblings came. And... the uncle who I was closest to I had actually... he and I... I remember at one point... stood in the room with my dad and sang to him. because my dad was... really loved music and my dad corrected our... our tuning because we were slightly flat. And I think he corrected the lyrics too. So it was really funny.

Nora: Like don't ruin my deathbed. like get to the right key.

Patricia: Wherever it makes sense I mean you don't want the last singing You hear to be off-key... that Would be horrible.

Nora: Yeah. Making good points here.

Patricia: So there are these moments of just humor. And then there were these moments of heartbreak in between it. and what was really hard... It was hard on everybody I mean I don't think anybody was having an easy time of it. But I think... everybody else in my family could frame it in a way that... that made them feel a little better about what was happening because they saw it as... my dad... keeping his integrity. And that was the big phrase that they.... like to use in that religion. He was keeping his integrity. He was staying faithful until the end. And to them they could look at the fact that my dad was dying of leukemia... over a period of nine days... as a faith strengthening example.  I was having a completely different... loss. Right next to them and they had no idea and I couldn't even tell them. because if they knew... then that would be its own set of problems. So I felt completely alone... around a bunch of people who were all... experiencing the same thing. So... while they were... they were looking at my dad and talking with him and saying... you know soon we'll be able to... build a treehouse. and.. pet the pandas and... you know. you'll get to learn the piano. You'll get to... learn all the languages you never got to learn. We'll be able to travel. You know all these things that Witnesses... look out for the future for the after resurrection after the Paradise is started... They were looking forward and I was just looking at that. That's it. He's going to be dead forever. 

Patricia’s dad dies. Her mom and siblings are looking forward to petting some Pandas with him someday, but Patricia can’t look forward to that. She’s in mourning. For the dad who just DIED. For the comfort of a religion she used to have. She has to mourn that a faith she rejected is sitting between her and the people she loves most, preventing her from connecting with them, from sharing her pain with them.

Patricia is alone in her grief, and her loneliness. And eventually, she’ll be alone in her joys, too.

Because the revelation that Patricia had -- that brought her into a life that feels full and happy and true to her -- also brought her to a place where her family can’t really KNOW her. To a place where the closest she can be to her family still contains a vast, invisible separation between them, as if they’re speaking to one another from behind a pane of glass.

So, what’s worse? To have her family at this distance, or to not have them at all?

Patricia: I think a lot of people... just... have very separate lives from their families. And... and then the people who rip off the bandaid and... are very open about everything with their family. Often it leads to... a lot more direct confrontation and shunning. But they also... find out if anyone in their family... would... you know go against the religion's rules and keep in touch with them. So... I almost think sometimes that by by... kind of fading out the way I did. by accident almost just trying to minimize the harm that... you know leaving with a grand gesture would cause I think that I have sacrificed... being able to be super open with my family.

Patricia, by the way, is not her real name. And she’s telling us this -- all of us -- knowing that there is a CHANCE that her family… or someone who knows her family... might hear it. Why would she do that? Why wouldn’t she? We all hold a part of ourselves that is unknowable to even the people who are closest to us -- but all we want... all of us… for the people we love to see us as best they can, and to love us regardless. And if they don’t, or won’t, or can’t… we want for someone, even strangers, to take their place. Maybe not to approve of everything we do, but at the very least, to witness it.